When Christine McVie passed away on Nov. 30, 2022, the tributes poured in from around the world.  Deservedly so.  We pay our respects to the legendary Christine Perfect the way we do best– by taking an in-depth look at one of her biggest hits from the classic “Rumours” album, along with an overview of Fleetwood Mac’s tortured history.

Also in this episode, I recommend the “Fakewood Mac” episode of the Rock And/Or Roll Podcast— my favorite podcast.  I highly recommend you check out this episode:
 https://rockandorrollpodcast.blogspot.com/2020/04/raor-308-fakewood-mac.html

“You Make Loving Fun” (Christine McVie)  Copyright 1976 Fleetwood Mac Music, USA – BMG Music Publishing Limited

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TRANSCRIPT:

Welcome to the “I’m In Love With That Song” podcast. I’m Brad Page, your host here on the Pantheon Network, where each episode, I pick one of my favorite songs and we listen to it together, listening for all the little moments, those special touches that make it a great song. No musical skill or knowledge is required. All you need is a love of music and you’ll fit right in here.

At the time of this recording, it’s been a little over a month since the passing of Christine McVie from Fleetwood Mac. There have been plenty of tributes to Christine; she deserves every one of them. And we’re going to pay tribute in the way that we do best– by doing some serious listening to one of her classic songs. This is “You Make Loving Fun” by Fleetwood Mac.

[Music]

The history of Fleetwood Mac is about as convoluted as a band history can get, and we don’t have time to go over every detail, but the history is important. So, some kind of overview is warranted, centering around Christine.

So, let’s start in 1968, where one of the hot new guitarists on the scene, Peter Green, left John Myall’s Bluesbreakers and started a new band, eventually taking the Bluesbreakers drummer and bass player, Mick Fleetwood and John McVie with him. He named this new band Fleetwood Mac, after the drummer and bassist, and soon they were joined by a second guitarist, Jeremy Spencer. Together, they recorded some of the seminal works of the British blues bands.

[Music]

In 1968, they recorded their second album called “Mr. Wonderful”. There were a few guest musicians on this album, including a young keyboard player named Christine Perfect.

[Music]

Christine Perfect was born in Birmingham, England in 1943. Her father, Cyril Perfect, was a violinist in the Birmingham Symphony Orchestra. Her mother, Beatrice, was a psychic. Christine started making music young, playing along to Everly Brothers records. And after graduating from art college, she joined the band Chicken Shack. Chicken Shack was signed to the same record label as Fleetwood Mac, Blue Horizon. Christine recorded two albums with Chicken Shack, and they had one hit in the UK with “I’d Rather Go Blind” featuring Christine on lead vocal.

[Music]

Christine left Chicken Shack in 1969 and released her first solo album in 1970. Here’s a track from the Christine Perfect album.

[Music]

Christine and Fleetwood Mac’s bass player John McVie had been seeing each other, and by this time, had gotten married. They spent the first year or so of their marriage away from each other, as each of them were on the road with different bands.

Back in the Fleetwood Mac camp, a third guitar player had joined Fleetwood Mac. His name was Danny Kirwan. The interplay between Kirwan and Peter Green was really something special, but it didn’t last. By 1970, Peter Green had left Fleetwood Mac; mental illness had taken its toll, and Peter Green would never really recover.

If you’d like to learn more about Peter Green and explore this era of Fleetwood Mac further, go back and listen to episode 67 of this podcast, where we dig into the legendary track “The Green Manalishi”.

So, Peter Green had left and Fleetwood Mac was without their star player, but Mick Fleetwood held the band together. They retreated to Southern England and recorded their fourth album, “Kiln House”. Christine once again made a guest appearance on this album, though she’s uncredited. She even drew the cover art for this album. But after the release of the album, she officially joined Fleetwood Mac as a full time member. Here’s a song from “Kiln House”, It’s a Danny Kirwan song called “Station Man”, with Christine on electric piano.

[Music]

The chaos continued, though, when Jeremy Spencer quit the band. He left and joined a religious cult and never came back. Once again, the band was forced to reinvent itself.

They recruited a new guitarist-vocalist-songwriter named Bob Welsh. They recorded and released their next album, “Future Games”, in 1971. “Future Games” was the first album to feature both Bob Welch and Christine as a full-time credited band member. Christine wrote two of the songs on “Future Games”. Here’s one of them, this one’s called “Morning Rain”.

[Music]

“Bare Trees” was released in 1972. This one featured the song “Sentimental Lady”, which Bob Welch would later rerecord and release as a solo hit. It also includes the song “Spare Me a Little of Your Love”, which features a great vocal by Christine.

[Music]

Things still wouldn’t settle down for Fleetwood Mac. Christine and John McVie’s marriage was on the rocks, and now Danny Kirwan was showing signs of self-destructive behavior. One night, Kirwan refused to go on stage and instead heckled the band from the audience. Mick Fleetwood had no choice but to fire him. Another key member of the band gone.

Kirwan would spend the remainder of his life wrestling with addiction, homelessness, and mental illness.

Two new members were brought into the band: vocalist Dave Walker from Savoy Brown, and guitarist Bob Weston. This lineup released the album “Penguin” in 1973. But this lineup didn’t last long, either. Dave Walker was out after only one album. Here’s one of Christine’s songs from the “Penguin” album. This one’s called “Remember Me”.

[Music]

Now back down to a five piece, they released their next album, “Mystery To Me”, in October 1973. This album includes the song “Hypnotized”.

[Music]

Things seem to be going OK for the band when they set out on a US. tour, but when Mick Fleetwood found out that Bob Weston was having an affair with his wife, Mick had enough. He fired Bob Weston, and told the rest of the band he needed to take a break and just couldn’t finish the tour. And thus began one of the most bizarre events in rock history.

While the band was on a break and scattered around the world, Fleetwood Mac’s manager put together his own version of the band– with no actual Fleetwood Mac members, just a bunch of nobodies, and sent them out on the road as Fleetwood Mac. It’s really a story you’ve got to hear. My podcasting friend Brian Cramp did an excellent episode on his podcast about this whole fiasco. You should really listen to that show; it’s episode number 308 of the “Rock And/Or Roll” podcast. That episode’s called “Fakewood Mac”. Check it out. I’ll put a link in the show notes.

So, by the beginning of 1974, things were as bad as they would ever get for Fleetwood Mac. Their record company was about to give up on them, they were being sued by their manager, and that whole “Fakewood Mac” tour just ruined their reputation. The band relocated to Los Angeles and went back into the studio as a four piece. Bob Welsh, Christine McVie, John McVie and Mick Fleetwood. And they recorded the album “Heroes Are Hard To Find”, their 9th album, released in September 1974. Christine wrote four songs on “Heroes Are Hard To Find”, including the title cut and this one, called “Prove Your Love”.

[Music]

By the end of 1974, Bob Welsh had left the band. Fleetwood Mac had lost five guitar players and one singer in the last four years.

Meanwhile, Lindsay Buckingham and Stevie Nicks were kicking around Los Angeles after leaving the San Francisco band Fritz and embarking on a career as a duo. They were working with producer Keith Olsen at Sound City Studio in Van Nuys. Olsen got them a record deal and they released their first album, “Buckingham Nicks”, in 1974. But the album received little promotion. It didn’t sell, and Buckingham Nicks were unceremoniously dropped by their record label.

Mick Fleetwood was still keeping Fleetwood Mac alive and was looking for a studio to start their next record. A friend suggested Sound City, so Mick went to check it out. He met with Keith Olson at the studio, and Keith, as an example of the studio’s capabilities, he played the Buckingham Nicks album for Fleetwood. And Mick Fleetwood was impressed with what he heard.

Eventually, Buckingham and Nicks were asked to join Fleetwood Mac, and after some soul searching, they decided to give it a shot. And that is the short story of how the version of Fleetwood Mac we all know and love got together. The longer story– and there is a longer story– well, that you can read all about that yourself.

So, in January 1975, the new lineup of Fleetwood Mac went into Sound City studios to record their first album together, which they simply named “Fleetwood Mac”. It took a while, but the album eventually made it to number one by September 1976, after 58 weeks of climbing the charts.

[Music]

You would think that things ought to be great for the band, but things were rough on a personal level. John and Christine had already split up; Lindsay and Stevie were calling it quits, and Mick was getting a divorce. By the time they headed back into the studio to make their next record, it was an emotional minefield. And all of that turmoil is famously reflected in the songs.

The album that would become “Rumours” took over six months to complete. It was recorded at a number of studios, including the Sausalito Record Plant, Wally Heider in LA, and Sound City in Van Nuys; the album was mixed at Sound City and at the LA Record Plant.

Much has been said about Lindsay Buckingham’s obsessions with getting everything perfect, but Christine McVie was just as dedicated. Recording engineer Chris Morris said Christine spent every minute of every day there, she was one of the hardest working women he’d ever worked with.

“Rumours” is chock-full of great songs and big hits. We’re going to take a deep dive into “You Make Loving Fun”. It’s easy to think of this song as a slight pop song, compared to some of the more adventurous tracks on the album, like “The Chain” or “Gold Dust Woman”. But “You Make Loving Fun” is an extremely well-crafted song. 3 minutes and 34 seconds of crafty songwriting, tight performances and recording perfection.

It was written by Christine McVie, produced by the band, along with Ken Caillat and Richard Dashutt, and with Lindsay Buckingham contributing a lot to the arrangement. So, let’s get into it.

Mick Fleetwood counts the song in with three hits on his hi-hat and then a drum hit on the four, and we’re off.

Christine McVie is playing two keyboard parts here. There’s a Fender Rhodes electric piano, it’s panned a little bit to the right, and a Honer clavinet, more or less in the middle. This clavinet is probably the most prominent element of the song. It’s what gives the song its groove. And that clavinet is fed through a wah-wah pedal, which was actually manipulated by Mick Fleetwood. He was laying on the floor, rocking it back and forth while Christine played the part. Listen to the way she weaves those two keyboard parts together.

[Music]

You can also hear some simple percussion parts there that are a little less obvious in the final mix. Let’s pick it back up at the top.

Lindsay Buckingham is playing some short little guitar licks that he’s going to continue to throw in throughout the song. There’s also another guitar part deeper in the mix. We’ll listen to that a little later. Let’s move on to the first verse.

[Music]

Fleetwood Mac fans know the story behind this song: Christine and John’s marriage was over. John had his girlfriends, and Christine was going out with Curry Grant– who just happened to be the band’s lighting director– and she wrote this song for him. Think about the emotions swirling around Christine and John and Curry while this song was being recorded. And that’s just one of the complex relationships around this band. This whole album is infused with that. Let’s listen to Christine’s vocal track.

[Music]

I’ve always liked this part right here. I mentioned Lindsay Buckingham’s other guitar part earlier. Here’s a little bit of what he’s doing in the background. It’s very simple, but it has to be because the keyboard parts are so full. There’s no room for a busy guitar part. The song just doesn’t need it. And part of Lindsay’s genius, like all great guitar players, is to know what to play and what not to play. And even when not to play at all. You barely notice this part is even there but it’s all part of the big picture.

So let’s listen to this verse again, this time without the vocal so we can hear just the instrumental track.

That brings us to the bridge, which I think is pretty magical. The verses have kind of a funky feel to them, especially with that clavinet. But the bridge drops in with this really dreamy feel, like a headrush. It’s that “head in the clouds” blissful feeling, which is a great match for the lyrics.

[Music]

Those layered backing vocals really make that dreamy feel. Let’s listen to the vocal tracks.

[Music]

Mick Fleetwood is playing kind of an interesting pattern on his tom drums here. Again, it’s another simple part, but it’s where he places the fills. That’s not exactly where I would expect them.

[Music]

And that leads us into a guitar solo by Lindsay Buckingham. Just one verse, one bridge and then a solo. There’s no second verse or chorus here. Just right into the solo. Not a typical arrangement, but this is a great guitar solo. Sounds like he’s doubled the guitar parts and panned one to each side. There’s some echo on the parts as well.

[Music]

The end of the solo takes us back to the bridge. Now notice that we’re what, halfway through the song, and we still haven’t heard the chorus yet.

[Music]

Now, we’ve already taken a look at the vocal parts and the drum track during the bridge. So this time, let’s hear Lindsay’s guitar parts. I really love what he’s doing here. See how he changes up the part for the second half of the bridge:

[Music]

One more thing that I want to listen to before we move on is John McVie’s bass part on the bridge. McVie is not a flashy or busy player. He’s just a rock solid in the groove player. But I like this part.

[Music]

For this last verse, let’s listen to how the bass and the drums are locked in together for a simple, driving rhythm that almost has a disco feel to it. This was 1977 after all.

[Music]

Lindsay plays some tasty little guitar parts during this verse. Let’s go back and just hear his guitar there. It’s after this last verse that we finally get to the chorus. The chorus doesn’t appear until the very end of the song. It’s very unusual for a pop song.

The chorus starts on the same chord as the bridge, but simplifies it, cycling through a simple I-V-IV chord progression. Those are chord changes you’ve heard in a million songs. But it’s what Fleetwood Mac adds to it, and layers on top, that makes this special.

[Music]

Let’s listen to Lindsay’s guitar again, because what he’s playing here is more like guitar orchestration rather than soloing.

[Music]

Now let’s go back and hear how that fits in with all the other parts in the final mix.

[Music]

Let’s check out those great layered vocal parts here, too.

[Music]

Let’s check out those last few guitar licks Lindsay gets in at the end.

[Music]

We’ll go back and wrap it up with that final fade out.

{Music]

“You Make Loving Fun” by Fleetwood Mac.

Christine McVie didn’t have the immediate eye-catching and marketable image the way that Stevie Nicks did. And she wasn’t perceived as the genius, a Brian Wilso- like visionary, as Lindsay Buckingham was. I think she was often overshadowed in the press, by the fans, and on stage by the other two. And her role in the band wasn’t always an easy one.

But she was an essential songwriter in the band. She wrote some of their biggest hits. “Don’t Stop”, “Songbird”, “Over My Head”, “Say You Love Me”, “Think About Me”, “Hold Me”. She wrote those songs. She was a critical part of the Fleetwood Mac magic. And as far as I’m concerned, the band was never as good when she wasn’t in it.

A lot of musicians have been lost over the last few years. One of the things I try to do on this show is to remind people of who they were, and just do my small part to keep their memory alive. Losing Christine was a big loss, but one thing I think we can all safely say is that Fleetwood Mac is in no danger of being forgotten anytime soon. Right now, they’re still hugely popular and they’ve been rediscovered by a whole new audience. That’s a testament to the lasting beauty and power of their music. And Christine is a big, big part of that. This songbird is gone, but the music lives on.

I used a number of resources to put this episode together. I wanted to mention a couple of them. The “Rumours” episode of the “Classic Albums” TV show, which is absolutely worth watching; and the book “Never Break the Chain” by Kath Carroll, which is a good history of Fleetwood Mac in general. And it really goes deep on the making of both the “Fleetwood Mac” and the “Rumours” albums. I really recommend both the show and that book. Check them out.

Thanks for listening to this edition of the “I’m In Love With That Song” podcast. New episodes are released on the 1st and the 15th of every month, so we’ll be back soon with another new show. Until then, you can catch up on all of our previous shows on our website, lovethatsongpodcast.com. You can also hear us on virtually every podcast service: Google, Apple, Amazon, Stitcher, Spotify you name it, we’re there.

You can post reviews or comments on Facebook or on Podchaser or wherever you listen to the show. And if you’d like to support the show, the best thing you can do is to tell a friend about it, because word of mouth is the most valuable thing for any podcast.

On behalf of everyone here on the Pantheon Podcast Network, I thank you for taking the time to listen to this episode on Fleetwood Mac and “You Make Loving Fun”.

Let’s kick off our first episode of 2023 with a look back 50 years to 1973. I’m joined on this episode by Andrew Grant Jackson, author of 1973: Rock At The Crossroads for a discussion of the music and history of the year that was 1973.

Andrew Grant Jackson is the author of 1973: Rock at the Crossroads, 1965: The Most Revolutionary Year in Music, Still the Greatest: The Essential Songs of the Beatles’ Solo Careers, Where’s Ringo? and Where’s Elvis? He’s written for Rolling Stone, Slate, Yahoo!, PopMatters, and Please Kill Me. He directed and co-wrote the feature film The Discontents starring Perry King and Amy Madigan. He lives in Los Angeles.

Jackson’s websites:

www.facebook.com/1973book

www.facebook.com/1965book

www.facebook.com/solobeatlebook

www.facebook.com/whereselvisbook

www.1965book.com

www.solobeatles.com

— This show is part of the Pantheon podcast network — THE place for music junkies, geeks, nerds, diehards and fans!

TRANSCRIPT:

Hello, everybody. This is the “I’m In Love With That Song” podcast. I’m your host, Brad Page, and welcome to our first show of 2023. I thought this would be a good opportunity to take a look back 50 years ago, to the year 1973, and see what was happening in music, and in the broader American cultural landscape, 50 years ago.

Some of you may remember a while back, I did an episode on the year 1965. That show was inspired by a book written by Andrew Grant Jackson on 1965. Well, Andrew also wrote a book about 1973. It’s called “1973 – Rock At The Crossroads”. And so I thought, if I’m going to do a show about 1973, I should invite Andrew to join me. So here’s my conversation with Andrew about the music that made history 50 years ago – in 1973.

BRAD: Andrew Grant Jackson. welcome to the “I’m In Love With That Song” podcast. Thanks so much for coming on the show to talk about 1973. We’re heading into 2023, so it’s a perfect time to look back 50 years ago. You literally wrote the book on 1973. It’s called “1973 – Rock At The Crossroads”. So I couldn’t have anyone better on the show, I think, to talk about 50 years ago, this year. So, let’s get right into it first. Why do you think 1973 was such a crucial year in rock history?

ANDREW: I like to think of it as the year that rock peaked and then began to die, but then was reborn, because on the one hand, it was the last blockbuster year where all these 60’s giants released classics at the same time. And then you had these veterans, who had been kind of toiling on the outskirts for a decade, who suddenly shot to the front. And then you had this amazing crop of these new superstars who released their debut album at the same time.

It was the year that radio programmers figured out how to synthesize AM Top 40 with FM progressive rock. And they created “album-oriented rock”. And then it began this period where, even though there’s obviously so much great classic rock, it started pushing anybody out who wasn’t arena rock or yacht rock or disco for a time. And so the seeds were planted there for stagnation. But then underneath the radar, there were all these new movements that started to percolate that would eventually rise up and rejuvenate popular music. So, it was just a chaotic, fascinating year on so many fronts to take a look at.

BRAD: Yeah. So let’s start talking about some of these records that came out in 1973.

ANDREW: We had the former Beatles, “Band On The Run” came out. And the Stones, they did “Goats Head Soup”, which at the time was dismissed as the beginning of their decline from like the peak, but I think it’s a very unique album in their canon, and I think it’s still a great album.

BRAD: Yeah, “Goats Head Soup” is one of my favorite Stones records. I think that’s a great record and a really underappreciated album.

[Music]

ANDREW: And Dylan, he did “Knocking On Heaven’s Door” that year. And Zeppelin did “Houses of the Holy”, The Who did “Quadrophenia”, Marvin Gaye “Let’s Get It On”, Stevie Wonder “Innervisions”. James Brown had a bunch of great stuff. Even Elvis, you know, he had his peak in terms of audience with the “Aloha from Hawaii” special. So, yeah, all those guys were still cranking on all cylinders there.

BRAD: The who released “Quadrophenia”, as you mentioned. Pete Townsend has, I think, more than once said that in his opinion, “Quadrophenia”, is the last great who album. I love a lot of the stuff that came after that, but I think it’s their peak record in many ways.

[Music]

Speaker E: Yeah, he was like looking back at ten years earlier, like the mod thing. It was like there was a lot of nostalgia going on that year, like “Happy Days” and “American Graffiti” and everything. And he was looking back at their early days, and definitely their last ambitious concept album after that, right?

BRAD: Yeah, “Quadrophenia” was their last real concept piece after that. You have “Who By Numbers” and “Who Are You”, “Face Dances”, “It’s Hard”, but none of those, they’re not a concept or a story or a rock opera or anything like that. But yeah, “Quadrophenia”, I mean, that alone makes 1973 worthwhile.

But yeah, on the soul and R&B front, you’ve got Marvin Gaye; Stevie Wonder is in his imperial period here, where he just can do no wrong, he’s putting out classic album after classic album and this is right in the midst of that.

[Music]

BRAD: What did James Brown put out in 1973?

ANDREW: Yeah, James Brown had a really interesting year, because he got a lot of blowback because he had supported Nixon, the year before in the elections

BRAD: Right.

ANDREW: Because, you know, you always wanted to get closer to power that could make legislative change. But also he had all these radio stations and tax issues going on, so, who knows, maybe that was his prime motivation, hoping to get some help with some of his issues, but for a while, people were protesting against him. But he had a lot of great stuff, like, he was doing all these soundtracks like “Black Caesar” and “Slaughter’s Big Ripoff”, “The Payback”, he did that one that year.

[Music]

BRASD: And then we had some other artists that really hit their peak at this time, probably nobody bigger than Pink Floyd with “Dark Side of the Moon”. I mean, is there any more classic album than “Dark Side of the Moon”?  That came out in ’73.

ANDREW: Yeah. And then it was on the charts for I forget, like 500 weeks or something like that.

[Music]

ANDREW: You know, a lot of people thought especially, “Brain Damage”, on that song, he was writing about Sid Barrett, their former member who became an acid casualty. But I guess he was actually– Roger Waters– was writing about himself; he had some moments himself where he thought he had some flashes of mental illness,. and it kind of freaked him out. That’s probably, if you had to pick, of the albums, I guess that would probably be the one that everybody would pick.

BRAD: It’s certainly the one that’s had the most long-term impact.

ANDREW: Right.

BRAD: And then Elton John is kind of in his imperial phase, too.

ANDREW: Yeah

BRAD: He puts out “Goodbye Yellow Brick Road” in 1973.

[Music]

ANDREW: That year, that was when Reggae really started being embraced by the English guys. And a lot of people, like the Stones and Cat Stevens, went down to Jamaica to record and Elton John tried it, but they recorded maybe the first take or the roots of “Saturday Night’s All Right For Fighting”, but they were so freaked out, like, the recording studio was kind of guarded with guns and barbed wire and it had been pretty brutal. Unfortunately, the women who were in the Stones camp had been assaulted, sexually assaulted there. So, Elton John was kind of like, tried at Jamaica, but then he left and they went back to their favorite place in France.

[Music]

BRAD: You mentioned reggae. This is the year of Bob Marley and the Wailers too, right?

ANDREW: Yeah, he had, two great albums that year, “Catch A Fire” and “Burning”. And “Burning” had “I Shot the Sheriff” and “Get Up, Stand Up” on it.

[Music]

ANDREW: It’s so interesting, this is just one thing I love about ‘73 was, in that year, he played a bunch of shows at Max’s Kansas City, which the hippest of the hip clubs & bars in New York.

BRAD: Right.

ANDREW: And he was like opening for Springsteen, or then Springsteen would open for him, and then Billy Joel was like opening for Waylon Jennings, you know, just so bizarre how all these titans who seem so distinct to us now, they were just overlapping with each other, coming up back then.

BRAD: Yeah, well, talking about Springsteen and Billy Joel, they’re just a few of the artists that put out their first records in 1973. So, let’s kind of take a look at that list: Springsteen releases “Greetings From Asbury Park”.

ANDREW: And then later the same year, he comes out with “The Wild, The Innocent & The East Street Shuffle”. He was really cooking, too.

BRAD: And this is not unique to 1973, but it’s an amazing thing that, throughout the 60’s and the 70’s, the rate at which artists were churning out records– 2 a year is not unusual, it’s the norm. Name almost any band in throughout the 60’s and 70’s and they’ve come out with at least two records a year. And a lot of these records have gone on to be classics, and just amazes me that anyone’s lucky to have one classic record in their catalog, you know– and these bands are doing, they’re coming out with two records a year of brilliance. It’s just amazing to me. And on top of that, they’re touring, so it’s not like they have a lot of luxury and time to make these records. But somehow, they’re able to just produce, year after year, great records, multiple records per year. It just amazes me. And now, artists go three, four years between records.

ANDREW: Yeah.

BRAD: Queen released their first album in 1973.

[Music]

ANDREW: Aerosmith and the New York Dolls and Lynyrd Skynyrd. You know, those were, along with Springsteen and Billy Joel, there’s like six of the biggest debuts in one year.

BRAD: Yeah, I mean, you have a record like the first New York Dolls album, which didn’t really sell that much, but incredibly influential record.

[Music]

BRAD: Like you said, Lynyrd Skynyrd puts out their first album. So, it’s really kind of the start of southern rock in a lot of ways.

ANDREW: Yeah, the Marshall Tucker Band came out that year and then, ZZ Top, with “LaGrange” came out, and the Alman Brothers had “Rambling Man” that year, too.

BRAD: Yeah. So it was definitely a high point for the Southern Rock sound. You’ve also got some, I think, overlooked records, like, well, I mentioned the New York Dolls record, it’s commercially overlooked. But Lou Reed released “Berlin”, which is my favorite Lou Reed record… I think, was not a successful record at the time, but in retrospect, I think it’s…

ANDREW: Yeah, it’s funny with that album, because it has this reputation as being the most depressing album of all time, because he had broken up with his wife,

[Music]

ANDREW: But that year he had had probably his commercial peak, because Bowie produced his previous album, “Transformer”, which had “Walk On the Wild Side”, which that tune got pretty high up on the charts.

BRAD: In ‘73, talking about Bowie, Bowie had quite a year. He released “Aladdin Sane”.

[Music]

ANDREW: After he released “Ziggy Stardust’ the previous year, then they toured the US, where, it was funny, they didn’t really make a big splash, except they started really coming through, and Glam was strangely big in Rust Belt towns like Detroit and Cleveland. So on “Aladdin Sane” he has “Panic In Detroit”, it’s a great tune, which was inspired by a lot of the stories you heard from like the MC5 and the Stooges.

[Music]

ANDREW: In the UK, it was like it was Bowie-mania then, but he, at the peak of it, after his run of shows in July, he announced that the Spiders From Mars were breaking up. But they did one last covers album. He did another, like you’re talking about, artists do like two albums a year; he did “Pinups”, which was like a collection of his favorite cover songs and stuff.

[Music]

BRAD: 1973 was a big year for women in rock– and I’m talking about rock, not pop. Fanny was a rock band, a full-on great rock and roll band that just never got their due.

[Music]

BRAD: Susie Quattro was making records, Linda Ronstadt was breaking through. So you had some pretty significant female artists working in 1973 and releasing important records then as well.

ANDREW: And in one of my favorite albums of that year, Joni Mitchell recorded “Court And Spark” all through ’73, but it didn’t come out until January 1, ‘74. But it was like an amazing year for just women’s rights; you had Roe versus Wade then…

BRAD: Interesting, here we are, 50 years later, and that’s never been as hot a topic since then as it is today.

ANDFREW: Yeah

BRAD: You had bands like Grand Funk Railroad, which are kind of a, I don’t know, that wouldn’t say they’re forgotten, but they released “We’re an American Band”, which was their biggest record. They were a huge band in the early ‘70’s.

ANDREW: Which Rundgren, Todd Rundgren produced that one, right?

BRAD: Yeah, that’s another record that Todd worked on.

ANDREW: They were kind of the band, like, that Detroit had all these guys like the MC5 that were just a little too raw and punk or protopunk. But they were the ones that kind of, I mean, they were legitimate, they were real just guys from Flint, Michigan. They weren’t phony or whatever, but they just, for some reason, were a little less edgy and were able to play Shea Stadium, you know?

BRAD: Right. They were selling Beatles level tickets. They were huge. People forget how big Grand Funk Railroad was at the time.

[Music]

BRAD: Let’s talk a little bit about the change in radio, which you mentioned up top. But that really is an important aspect of what was going on in the 70’s and really changed the whole business, the way music was marketed and everything becomes much more siloed by the end of the decade.

ANDREW: Yeah, at the time there was AM Top 40, which was actually very eclectic. They would play everybody from Beatles to Motown to like, Frank Sinatra and “Tie A Yellow Ribbon Around The Old Oak Tree”, and then you had progressive FM where the DJs would play these 20-minute tracks, whatever they want. But a lot of the songs that seemed too long to be singles started compelling people to buy albums, like “Stairway to Heaven”, “Won’t Get Fooled Again”. And these people started thinking about, well why don’t we combine playing the long, hard rock stuff that’s popular, but with formatted things where we tell the DJ what to play, and so… because there was a guy named Ron Jacobs, who was like a program director in, I think, Southern California, who they started sending people to supermarkets to do this demographic research on what albums did these young white kids want to hear? Because the advertisers wanted the young white kids, because, I guess, they blew the most money, whatever, right?

So, they really started trying to format everything to match that demographic. And there was a guy named Mike Harrison who started writing this column called “Album Oriented Rock” and this radio and records trade magazine. And so it really started coalescing into these tight playlists that the disc jockeys were told what to do, instead of having freedom to do whatever. But that format was very profitable and it kind of took off. But what was interesting was, like in 73, they had 27 number one hits on Billboard, and ten of them were by black artists. But by the end of the decade, the first years of the 80’s, they’d only had, like, two by black artists or three. Like, one year was just Lionel Richie and “Ebony and Ivory”. So, anybody who didn’t fit those demographics that the advertisers wanted to sell to the young white kids just kind of got closed out by the end of the decade.

BRAD: Yeah, that just got less and less and less as time went on, and things became way more formatted and segregated and you just didn’t mix. And so the Motown stuff just didn’t get played next to the rock acts anymore, which I think ultimately was just detrimental to the music in general.

ANDREW: Yeah, one thing that really started picking up steam in ‘73 was disco.

BRAD: Right.

ANDREW: But in Manhattan, a lot of the clubs that would become the famous discos opened, and then, a lot of the singles that would become huge the following year, like “The Sound of Philadelphia” and “Rock the Boat” and “Rock Your Baby” and “Love’s Theme”, those all were released this year. For a while, disco was very much from the street and just responding to what the people loved in the clubs, and where all the races were mixing, and sexualities and all that. But then when it became huge, then that got like formatted by the end of the decade, ‘till they killed it, just they rode it to the ground.

[Music]

BRAD: At the same time as you have disco making its first big moves, you also have the early seeds of punk. We already talked about New York Dolls, but a lot of that started around the same time, too, the first seeds of what would become punk. And you talk about that in the book.

ANDREW: Yeah, there are a lot of interesting things with punk, but just the New York Dolls aspect of it; the thing I love is that, in New York at that time, you had to play covers, you had to be a cover band, or else there was only a couple of places to play, like Max’s Kansas City, and then CBGB’s opened up at the end of ‘73, and there was this place in Queens called Coventry, which what I just love is that the New York Dolls were playing there, and the guys watching them were the guys from The Ramones and the guys from Kiss.

BRAD: Right.

ANDREW: So it was interesting, the two kind of paths that the New York Dolls kind of birthed.  You know, what was interesting about punk, too, that I love: punk and heavy metal, Like those concepts that, now that we look at music through were both really kind of pounded home through these rock journalists. Because journalists like Dave Marsh and Lester Bangs had been talking about punk in reference to these guys from the 60’s like The Seeds that maybe had one classic garage-band hit and then kind of never really broke through. And then Lenny Kaye, who became Patty Smith’s guitarist, was commissioned by Electra Records to do a compilation of all those kind of classic songs.

BRAD: Yeah, the “Nuggets” compilation album, which we’ve actually featured on this show recently. One of my favorite records. But I love that early protopunk garage rock psychedelic stuff. It’s great.

ANDREW: Yeah, it’s really interesting that Lester Banks in particular was really using the term punk, all the time. He had so many citations of that word in, like, ‘72, ‘73, ‘74. And then with heavy metal, there was a journalist called Mike Saunders who kind of seemed like he was noticing that Lester Bangs was really pounding this term punk into everybody’s head, and so he started pounding this term heavy metal, which William Burroughs used it in one of his books, and then it was “Born To Be Wild”, the song by Steppenwolf. But he just started referring to Sabbath and Zeppelin and everybody as heavy metal. So, it’s kind of like these journalists, it’s interesting seeing them form that year, because they would include bands that you wouldn’t think of any of those genres when they were using them, those days. But gradually those concepts started taking hold.

BRAD: Yeah. When these guys first talk about it, it’s fairly loose– you could describe Black Sabbath and Grand Funk Railroad as heavy metal.

ANDREW: Right.

Speaker D: But of course, then that gets sort of corporatized, and then gets sliced even further to the point where you’ve got “death metal” and “black metal” and “hair metal”, and we slice the pie thinner and thinner, which is a pet peeve of mine; I hate it when we do that because I think it’s limiting.

ANDREW: Yeah, it’s weird because, on the one hand, when you’re a kid in the record store, some of those labels are helpfu,l because you go to the heavy metal section or the punk section. And then when you tune into radio stations, just a heavy metal radio station or whatever, but it just calcifies, I guess, and, like you say, starts segregating and getting too dogmatic or something.

BRAD: Right, right. Some of the other cultural things or things going on in the culture outside of the music, but, of course, affecting the music: You’ve got the end of the Vietnam War.

ANDREW: Yeah, Vietnam ended. The last Vietnam soldier came home, or left Vietnam, on March 29. And there’s that famous picture of, uh, the “burst of joy” photo of that lieutenant coming home and his little kids are running toward him on the runway. And, it’s funny, there were a lot of, kind of deep cuts going on that were still referencing Vietnam, like “Search and Destroy” on the Stooges album.

[Music]

ANDREW: New York Dolls had the song “Vietnamese Baby” and Funkadelic had this tune “March to the Witch’s Castle” about soldiers coming home and becoming junkies.

[Music]

ANDREW: “Back to the world”, Curtis Mayfield had it. So there was a lot of reflection of Vietnam going on in the culture. And then before Nixon could really benefit from that, I guess, Watergate really took off.

BRAD: Yeah, yeah, I mean, that’s another big political event. I’m not aware of that many songs about Watergate, but I think it just sort of put the exclamation point at the end of a lot of people’s feelings about politics and the government and whatnot.

ANDREW: It’s funny, too, that year, speaking of having hearings and all that stuff, tying it in today with the hearings about January 6 and Trump and all that; that year was like a formative year for Trump, because the Department of Justice brought a suit against him and his father, Fred Trump, because they were one of the biggest developers and landlords in New York, and they were not letting African Americans be in their apartments. And so the Department of Justice brought this huge suit against them, which landed on the front page of The New York Times and was kind of like a bellwether case. And Donald Trump actually went out and he found Roy Cohn, who was McCarthy’s right hand man. Cohn gave him a lot of his techniques that Trump would perfect, like never admit anything, just double down. If someone attacks you, attack them back. And they never admitted to the racism or discrimination, but they eventually settled, but they never admitted to it or whatever.

BRAD: The gay liberation movement kind of starts around this time, too.

ANDREW: Well, you had both the political events and then you had the musical events that kind of encouraged people fighting for gay rights. But that year, in December, the American Psychiatric Association finally voted to remove homosexuality from the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, which today that sounds absurd. And then Lance Loud was kind of the first out for personality on the, it was like the first reality show, right?

BRAD: The Loud family. I forget the name of the show.

ANDREW: The American family.

BRAD: That’s right. American family.

ANDREW: And Rocky Horror started performing in London that year. So it was definitely a great year for all those elements. And then Glam Rock in general was peaking with, we had Sweet with “Ballroom Blitz”. And T-Rex was really, he had “20th Century Boy” going. And Roxy Music. That was a big year for Roxy Music, because Eno left the band that year.

[Music]

BRAD: An interesting thing that was going on in the wider political or economic conditions that directly affected the music business was the oil crisis. Because, of course, it takes oil to make plastics to press records, and that had a big impact.

ANDREW: Yeah, the vinyl shortage really, I think, kicked off in ‘74 because OPEC happened. I mean, oil embargo happened in ’73, but really took hold. And I guess the albums became a lot thinner and breakable more and they uh, put the industry into a recession at 74.

Speaker D: I remember specifically, I think it was RCA Records, but I remember there was one of the record labels that came up with a new name for their records, like “Flexi Something”, and you’d take the records out of the sleeve and they would practically flop over, they were so thin, and they were so prone to getting warped, to becoming warped, because they were pressing them as thin as they could possibly press them to save money. But it produced a lot of pretty poor records.

ANDREW: And the other big influence with the oil crisis was it kind of sparked the moment that incoming inequality started to expand again. Because since World War II, middle class workers and the corporate managers and CEOs, their incomes were coming closer together. I think they called it the “great compression”. And middle-class workers had this kind of stunning rise in their standard of living. But then ‘73 was the year that, when you compare average hourly earnings, when you factor in inflation, it peaked that year and it started going down. And so that was really a pivotal year where, for middle class people; we kind of started going backwards a little bit.

And there was another movement we didn’t really touch on too much yet, but Country really had a lot of interesting effects, in kind of these three movements, where you had like the “outlaw country” movement. Then you had “country rock” and then you had “southern rock”. I guess we touched on them a little bit.

BRAD: Well, yeah, we didn’t really talk about Country, but kind of the center of Country music was always held pretty tight in Nashville, but this is where you start to see what they call the “Bakersville Sound”, coming out of California, and Southern Rock, Country Rock. But yeah, talk a little bit about some of that.

ANDREW: Well, it’s interesting. I don’t know how much Willie Nelson and Waylon Jennings, who were like the main “outlaw country” guys, Kris Kristofferson. But Kristofferson was kind of in his own world, where he was partly influenced by Dylan and he was working in Nashville and Country, but he kind of went to his own rules and had a lot of rock influence. And Willie Nelson and Waylon liked that; they really started putting up a fight to do things their way, and just have their touring bands play on their actual albums, and then produce it how they wanted and write what they wanted. And they really finally broke through and took control, and they started releasing the outlaw country classic albums.

[Music]

ANDREW: And Country rock, you’re talking about the western Bakersfield the thing, you had the folk music guys in LA, who were very influenced by the Bakersfield sound’ and so you had like the Eagles and it was funny– they too, had their own struggles, because Glen Frey and Don Henley, they started writing stuff that was mellow, like “Tequila Sunrise” and “Desperado” that year. But Glenn Frey had come from Detroit, where he had been sort of in Bob Seeger’s scene, and he wanted to bring more of his rock stuff to it. But, ironically, their producer, Glyn Johns, produced them and he, of course, was like the rock producer extraordinaire of like, The Who and Zeppelin and the Beatles. But he told them, “you guys can’t rock– trust me, I’ve been with Zeppelin and The Who. You guys can’t rock.” And he was trying to keep them in that mellow zone. So they finally broke with him. And even Linda Rodstadt, she was very close with the Eagles, and she, actually Neil Young brought her on tour with him to open for him. And it was kind of a baptism of fire for her, because all these kind of rock guys would throw stuff at her, but she just had to yell back at them. And she wanted to be a bit more rocky, too, but they kept trying to pigeonhole her. It’s always these label people, who are very concerned with pigeonholing people into the demographic they think can sell, and so they get uptight about them trying to go outside their lines and stuff.

BRAD: There was also the continued rise of the singer-songwriter movement. Acts coming out of Laurel Canyon and whatnot, right?

ANDREW: And kind of centered down the road from Laurel Canyon on Santa Monica Boulevard at the Troubadour Club, there were so many people working there that year that were great. You had Tom Waits, who kind of positioned himself as like the anti- smooth, slick, country rock troubadour person. And Billy Joel. I don’t know if it was his debut album, but the “Piano Man” album, it was about his whole trek, because he used to be in a two-man band with another guy, but then he fell in love with the guy’s wife, and then she went with Billy and became his wife for most of the 70’s. He did this album, “Piano Man”, which was almost, I wouldn’t call it a concept album, but has so many great forgotten Billy Joel songs. And it’s about his trip across the west to Los Angeles, where then he was playing the Troubadour and then the Piano Bar there. And Jim Croce was one of my favorites, he had, I think, two albums that year, and “Bad, Bad Leroy Brown” was like the second-biggest hit of the year. And then he had, of course, the plane crash on September 20.

Bob Seeger, he did all these great albums that didn’t ever really break through until he had “Night Moves” a couple of years later.

[Music]

ANDREW: You know, Zeppelin just had a big year with “Houses of the Holy”. It didn’t have the monumental anthem like “Stairway to Heaven” on it, you know, sometimes people don’t put it up there with Zeppelin’s greatest stuff.

BRAD: No, but it’s got “The Rain Song”, which is an amazing piece of music; it’s got “No Quarter”, which is one of their best songs; “Song Remains The Same”, which is a Zeppelin classic… I mean, it’s a weird sounding record, the production on that has always seemed weird to me, but yeah, it’s a stone cold classic. No doubt.

[Music]

ANDREW: The other great thing that was amazing– this is another thing where you can argue that it was ‘73, but Neil Young recorded “Tonight’s The Night”, even though it wasn’t released for a couple of years later. And that was pretty much done live in the studio, super raw. That’s considered one of his best albums.

BRAD: Yeah. And it is raw, both recording wise and just emotionally. It’s very raw.

ANDREW: Yeah. Two of his, I think, like a band member from Crazy Horse and a Roadie had both OD’d.

BRAD: Yeah, right. Both victims of drug addiction and overdose. Yeah, recorded in ’73, didn’t come out ‘till ‘74. But I’ll allow it.

[Music]

BRAD: We talked about the beginnings of disco, the beginnings of punk; another thing that was gestating at this time was the earliest sounds of hip-hop.

ANDREW: Right, yeah. There was a guy in the Bronx, this DJ Cool Herc, he made his debut in August as a DJ at a party that was in the rec room of the apartment he lived at in the Bronx, on Sedwick Avenue. His family was from Jamaica. And in Jamaica, they had this tradition where the DJs would get these big trucks and these big sound systems, and they would blast the music out, like thousands of people would pay to come listen to the DJs play, and they would start doing their own “toasting”, they called it, on top of them, where they would do their little raps over the instrumental versions. And so, all that was kind of in the back of DJ Cool Herc’s mind. And they started his first show at his sister’s plate, or at his sister’s party in the apartment. But then, I think it was the following year, that he started doing block parties where they would plug in stuff into the lamp posts in the parks, and they would start playing and they would start using a lot of the instrumental disco tracks and the funk tracks that were big in this year. And they would focus in on the beats. And eventually, that was the genre that would take over from Rock as the best-selling genre. I mean, it’s still strong in the indie level, but on a cultural mega level, it’s definitely receded.

BRAD: For better or worse, Rock does not have the stature, I guess, or the commercial appeal that it did back when we were youngsters. But if I was to put the best spin on it, I would say that’s really where Rock is best– when it’s got some rebellion to it, when it’s on the outside looking in, rather than being the “in thing”, at least for the integrity of the music, for whatever that’s worth. But no, you don’t get hit rock records today. The day of rock topping the charts is over, but I’m not sure that’s necessarily a bad thing for the music.

Speaker E: I did a book on the year 1965…

Speaker D: I read that book and that inspired me to do an episode of my show on 1965. So that, and your book was a source material for that. So, of course, when came time to do 1973, you were the go-to guy. Um, that book is great.

ANDREW: Thank you. And then my publishers actually came to me with the idea for ‘73. And when I looked at ‘73, I was kind of stunned with just the quality of so much music. Just like how it explodes out in every direction. It’s just a very amorphous year, but I think that’s what makes it fascinating because it’s almost hard to wrap your brain around that year. It’s just such a crazy year.

BRAD: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, any year that brought you “Dark Side of the Moon”, “Houses of the Holy”, “Quadrophenia”, “Let’s Get It On”, “Band on the Run”; that saw the first elements of punk and disco and hip-hop and reggae… It’s absolutely a significant year for rock, and more than just rock.

ANDREW: And you even have techno, like, Kraftwork was this year– they ditched the live drums and they just started focusing on drum machines. Yeah, that’s even starting up this year.

BRAD: Yeah. Incredible.

ANDREW: Crazy.

BRAD: Yeah. Well, Andrew Grant Jackson, thank you so much for coming on the show. I love the “1965” book, I love “1973 – Rock at the Crossroads”. I highly recommend both of those books to anyone listening to the show. Check them out, they’re fascinating reads. And I thank you for coming on the show and doing this with me. Thank you so much, Andrew.

ANDREW: Thank you. Thanks for having me.

BRAD: Thanks a lot.

And thank you for listening to my conversation with Andrew Grant Jackson. And there’s even more music from 1973 that we didn’t touch on. If you’d like to dig deeper into 1973, a great place to start is Andrew’s Facebook page for the book. It’s at facebook.com/1973book. There’s even a link there to a playlist of songs from 1973 that you can listen to. And of course, there’s the book itself, which I highly recommend. It’s called “1973 – Rock at the crossroads”. And Andrew is also the author of the fantastic book on 1965, that book is called “1965 – The Most Revolutionary Year In Music”, as well as a few other books. I’ll put some links in the show notes for all of his books.

I will be back in about two weeks with another new episode. You can catch up on all of our previous shows on our website, lovethatsongpodcast.com. Please leave a review or send us feedback.

And if you’d like to support the show, the best thing you can do is to tell a friend about us because your personal recommendations are worth more than any advertising.

I’ll meet you back here next time on the “I’m in Love With That Song” podcast.

At the time they released their 2nd album in 1978, Tom Petty & The Heartbreakers were a struggling band hoping to break through. They had plenty to prove, and there was still a punky edge to their sound– clearly evident on the first single from the album, “I Need To Know”. At a tight two-minute-and-twenty-six-seconds, there’s no fat on this track– just a great song, a taste of the brilliant music to come.

“I Need To Know” (Tom Petty) Copyright 1977 Almo Music Corp (ASCAP)

 —  And don’t forget to follow our show, so you never miss an episode!

TRANSCRIPT:

This is the “I’m In Love With That Song” podcast, and I’m your host, Brad Page. Each episode here on the Pantheon Podcast Network, we take a song and explore it together, listening to all the elements, the arrangements, the performance and the production that makes it a great song. Musical experience or knowledge is not necessary here, we don’t get into things like music theory. We’re just going to put our ears to work and see or hear what we discover.

All the way back in episode number two of this show, our second episode ever, we listened to Tom Petty and a song from his third album called “Even the Losers”, one of my all-time favorite songs. It’s been over a hundred episodes since then, so I think it’s time we revisit Tom Petty. On this edition of the podcast, we’re taking a deep dive into a song from his second album. This is a song called “I Need To Know”.

[Music]

Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers worked their way up through the ranks, starting out in Gainesville, FL, eventually landing in Los Angeles with a record deal with Shelter Records. They released their first album in November 1976, and though the album featured the single “Breakdown”, which would become one of Petty’s most iconic songs, at that time, neither the single or the album got much attention at all. Here in 1976, this was a band still struggling to make it, even though they had a record out.

However, things were looking a little brighter over in the UK. They were getting some airplay there, and so the band headed to England for a tour as the opening act for Nils Lofgren. They appeared on Top of the Pops and the old Grey Whistle Test TV shows. Not bad for their first time out. But when they got back to America, they were still nobodies here.

ABC Records, which distributed Shelter, had pretty much given up on the album in the States. It had been out for eight months and it didn’t seem like it was going anywhere. They only sold 12,000 copies. But one of ABC’s promotion guys, a guy by the name of John Scott, heard the record and liked it, and figured he could do something with it. He had no budget and not much support from the label, but he believed in this record, in this band and he worked his ass off.

Slowly but surely, “Breakdown” was added to radio playlists across the country.  A year and a half after it was first released– a lifetime ago in the pop music world—“Breakdown” hit the top 40.

[Music]

Then, the band were thinking about their next album. There’s a cliché, that also happens to be true: that an artist has their whole life to write their first album, and then six months to come up with their second.

Many bands burn through all their best material on their first album, then are immediately thrown out on the road to tour to promote that album, and then sent back into the studio to record their second album.

Not much time to write a bunch of good songs for that record, but for the Heartbreakers, luckily, magically, the songs for the second album came together pretty fast. There were a couple of tunes the band had found time to develop while they were on the road. “I Need To Know” was one of them.

“I Need To Know” was written by Tom Petty. It was released as the first single from the second album, called “You’re Gonna Get It”. The album was produced by Denny Cordell, Noah Shark and Tom Petty, and features Tom Petty on guitar and lead vocals, Stan Lynch on drums, Ron Blair on bass, Benmont Tench on keyboards, and Mike Campbell on lead guitar.

The song begins powerfully with all the instruments coming in at once. There are two guitar parts, I assume one’s played by Tom Petty and one by Mike Campbell. One is panned left, the other panned right.

That is just a great rock and roll guitar tone. Love it. The piano played by Benmont Tench is more or less panned straight up the middle. It’s lower in the mix, but he’s really rocking out here on this intro.

If you’re more familiar with Petty’s later material and that sort of sardonic, laid-back vocal style of his, it’s easy to forget just how in-your-face and punky his vocals used to be. Let’s listen to those vocals.

You can hear there’s some echo on his vocal there. One of my favorite elements of the arrangement of the song is next on the chorus, where the backing vocals repeat the title. After he sings the line, they are reinforcing his feelings and backing him up. It adds to the intensity of the song, increasing that sense of anxiety.

Let’s hear the chorus with the whole band.

Here’s the second verse, and let’s listen into the bass and drums this time around.

There’s a great scream coming up here that leads into the guitar solo. Let’s hear that scream.

And here’s the guitar solo by Mike Campbell. Let’s go back to the chorus one more time, with just the vocals and the keyboards. Because Benmont Tench is playing a really great part. Along with the piano, he’s also overdubbed an organ.

Now also if you listen closely to the last chorus, you can hear they’ve overdubbed a guitar playing these spiky little guitar stabs. They’re very low in the mix at first.

Those guitar stabs are a little more prominent this time.

“I Need To Know” by Tom Petty and The Heartbreakers

“You’re Gonna Get It’, the second album from The Heartbreakers is kind of an overlooked album, coming after their debut album, which also had one of their biggest hits, “Breakdown”, and right before the “Damn The Torpedoes” album, arguably their masterpiece. It’s easy for this record to kind of get lost, but I think it’s a great album.

And we may never have gotten this record, or the great music that followed, if it weren’t for the behind-the-scenes people like John Scott, that promotions guy, who wouldn’t give up on this little rock and roll band.

Nobody makes it on their own. Every artist has people out of the limelight that put their heart and soul into supporting that artist. So, here’s a toast to people like John Scott, the people that no one ever hears about, but without them, we wouldn’t have gotten many of the great songs that we love. And of course, let’s pay tribute to Tom Petty himself, who died too early in 2017. He left behind a legacy of great songs, but I know he still had a lot more great music left in him. It was a huge loss.

Well, thanks as always, for being a part of this edition of the “I’m In Love With That Song” podcast. Share with us some of your favorite Tom Petty songs or memories. Post them on our Facebook page, or on Podchaser, or wherever it is that you listen to the show.

You can find our previous show on Tom Petty, along with a hundred other episodes on our website, lovethatsongpodcast.com, as well as on Apple podcasts, Spotify, Google, Amazon– anywhere you can find podcasts, you’ll find our show.  And don’t forget to follow the show so that you never miss any of our new episodes.

We are but one of many shows in the Pantheon family of podcasts, where you’ll find a wide range of podcasts on musi,c from Bob Dylan to hip hop to heavy metal.

Thanks for listening to this show on Tom Petty and The Heartbreakers “I Need To Know”

It’s time for another episode in our “Albums That Made Us” series: this time, I’m joined by Craig Smith from the Pods & Sods Network to discuss a much-maligned album that happens to hold a special place in his heart– the soundtrack to the “Sgt. Pepper’s Lonely Hearts Club Band” movie. This was how Craig discovered The Beatles. We also discuss “Wings Over America“, which was my entry point into Beatles fandom.

— This show is one of many great podcasts on the Pantheon Podcasts network. Check ’em all out!

Norman Whitfield turned The Temptations from a typical Motown vocal group into Psychedelic Soul pioneers. Their collaboration reached its zenith with “Papa Was A Rolling Stone“, a dark, atmospheric, orchestral showcase for both the Temptations and Whitfield’s genius. This would be the last #1 hit for The Temptations, and they would stop working with Norman Whitfield soon after. But they left behind this monumental masterpiece.

“Papa Was A Rolling Stone” (Norman Whitfield & Barrett Strong) Copyright 1972 Stone Diamond Music Corp.

If you enjoyed this episode, here’s a previous episode that featured another classic Temptations song:
lovethatsongpodcast.com/the-temptations-i-cant-get-next-to-you/

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TRANSCRIPT:

You have managed to find your way to the “I’m In Love With That Song Podcast, one of the many shows on the Pantheon Podcast Network dedicated to bringing you the best music-related podcasts. I’m your host Brad Page, and each episode of this show, I pick one of my favorite songs and we attempt to discover what makes it a great song. Musical knowledge or experience is not a prerequisite here, we don’t get technical. This show is for anybody who loves music.

On this edition, we’re taking a look at one of the most epic songs to ever hit Number One, and probably the most unconventional track that Motown ever released. This is the Temptations with “Papa Was a Rolling Stone”.

Barrett Strong and Norman Whitfield were one of Motown’s most successful songwriting teams. Whitfield was also their most adventurous producer. He was the man credited with creating the sound of “psychedelic soul”. Whitfield and Strong wrote “Papa Was A Rolling Stone” sometime in 1971. Whitfield had composed the music and recorded a basic track, and gave the tape to Strong with the suggestion that he come up with some lyrics that were fun. But as Strong listened to the tape over and over, he heard it differently. In particular, he thought that the bass part sounded like someone struggling to make sense out of confusion. He started to think about kids he knew who had been abandoned by their fathers. When they asked their mother what happened to their dad, what would they say? So Strong ran with that idea, finished up the lyrics and presented them to Whitfield, who liked them.

So they completed the song and then set about recording it with a band called The Undisputed Truth. It was this version that was released as a single in early 1972.

[Music]

That’s actually a pretty cool production, but it wasn’t a hit. Whitfield still believed in the song though, and he convinced Barry Gordy to let him have another crack at it. So Whitfield completely reworked the song and went back into the studio with Motown’s legendary Funk brothers and rerecorded it. They turned it into an epic twelve-minute instrumental, a track full of atmosphere. Whitfield brought in Paul Riser to arrange the strings. Riser thought the track was full of mystery and suspense, and he treated his arrangement like he was scoring a movie. The soundtrack to “Shaft” had come out a year before, and Reiser was definitely inspired by that.

Now here’s where the Temptations come in. By 1971, The Temptations had gone through some major changes. Paul Williams and Eddie Kendricks had left, leaving Otis Williams, Dennis Edwards and Melvin Franklin to carry on with two new members, Richard Street and Damon Harris.

The Temptations had had quite a few hits with Norman Whitfield producing, including two number ones. One of them, “I Can’t Get Next To You”, we covered here back in episode number 45.

But the Temptations were growing tired of Whitfield’s experimentations, which made the guys feel more like bit-players on their own records. They wanted to return to the romantic numbers like “My Girl” that they used to do. So, when Whitfield brought them into the studio and played them the twelve-minute track to “Papa Was a Rolling Stone”, they said, “No way, we are not doing that”. They argued for about 20 minutes when the group’s leader, Otis Williams, finally said, “Okay, we’ll give it a try”.

So let’s get into the track. Now, usually my preference is to go with the album version rather than the single, but this time we’re going to go with the single. The album version, at twelve minutes long, is a bit much for this podcast, and considering that the single itself is seven minutes, that gives us plenty to work with.

Here’s how the track begins. Just bass and hi-hat. Let’s hear just the bass, because that’s really the heart of the song.

The next thing you hear are the strings arranged by Paul Reiser. They add some real drama to the song. You can hear how Reiser was orchestrating this like a soundtrack to a movie, rather than just a pop song.

Here come the guitars, played by Paul Warren and Wah-Wah Watson. The two guitar parts play off each other and all the other instruments throughout the whole song. They’re always doing something interesting.

Added here, a trumpet played by Maurice Davis. Davis had already finished recording his part and was on his way out when Norman Whitfield called him back into the studio. He wanted to try recording it with a heavy echo on it. So, Davis re-recorded his whole part using the echo, which adds another layer of spookiness to the song.

Hand claps on the off beats. Notice how the hand claps stop there? The wah-wah guitar flutters and then the harp comes back in. All these parts flowing in and out. The wah-wah guitar drops out, the strings build and then drop out, too.

We are 1 minute and 55 seconds into the song, and here is where the vocals finally come in. On the album version, it’s almost four minutes before the vocals come in. You can see why The Temptations felt like they were being sidelined, but that intro really sets a mood, doesn’t it?

We’ll take a look at the vocals in a minute, but first, let’s just listen to what those guitars are doing in the background.

The Motown guitar players were usually relegated to just playing rhythm, but here they get to stretch out a bit.

Now the vocals. The first voice we hear is Dennis Edwards. Edwards and Whitfield clashed from the start about this song. Edwards kept trying to put more into his vocal performance, but Whitfield kept telling him to hold back, to tone it down. Edwards did not like to be restrained, but Whitfield wanted it dialed way down. That was making Edwards pretty mad. But Whitfield got the take he wanted.

Edwards was also upset because he was taking the lyrics a little personally. This verse about the 3rd of September being the day that Daddy died hit a little close to home. Now, the legend has it that Edward’s own father died on September 3, but that’s not actually true. His dad died on October 3. Still, it was close enough for Edwards to be concerned about it. And Whitfield had to convince him that it wasn’t personal. Barrett Strong had only written the lyrics that way because he liked the way it sounded–the date was purely a coincidence.

Let’s hear more of the guitars behind this verse.

Here come those hand claps again.

Maurice Davis’s trumpet, saturated with echo, appears again. The strings are going to take over for a few measures. Let’s hear what they’re doing. Reiser used nine violins, four violas, three cellos, and that harp for the string section.

In classic Temptations fashion, the lead vocals are shared by different singers. This works particularly well on this song, because it sounds like multiple children telling their stories. It’s not just the story of one boy, it’s the voices of all those kids who were let down by their fathers.

This next verse features Richard Street, who replaced Paul Williams in 1971, as well as Melvin Franklin, whose deep bass voice was the foundation for so many great Temptations songs.

I love that part.

Let’s zero in on Richard street’s vocals.

Wah-wah Watson is getting in some licks behind this verse. Let’s hear some of that.

And here’s the second chorus.

I like that guitar lick there. The final verse features Damon Harris, who replaced Eddie Kendricks when he quit in ‘71. Harris was the youngest member of the band, and while Kendrick’s falsetto was one of the Temptation’s trademarks, Damon sounds great here.

Damon gets the last word.

Let’s listen a little more to that backing track.

“Papa Was a Rolling Stone”. During their career, The Temptations had four number one hits on the top 100: “My Girl”, “I Can’t Get Next To You”, “Just My Imagination” and “Papa Was A Rolling Stone”. Three of those four were written by Norman Whitfield and Barrett Strong, and produced by Whitfield.

That was a magic combination, but it didn’t last. Within a few years, Whitfield and The Temptations would stop working together, and Whitfield would leave Motown. “Papa Was A Rolling Stone” would be the last number one hit for The Temptations, but it was their crowning achievement.

Thanks for listening to this edition of the “I’m In Love With That Song” podcast. New episodes are released on the 1st and the 15th of every month, so we’ll be back soon with another show. You can find all of our previous shows on our website, lovethatsongpodcast.com, as well as on Spotify, Apple, Podcasts, Google, Amazon, wherever you can find podcasts. And if you’re looking for more music podcasts, check out the other great shows on the Pantheon Network.

Drop us a line on Facebook, Podchaser, or send email to lovethatsongpodcast@gmail.com.

Don’t forget to support the artists you love by buying their music. And thanks for joining me for this episode on “Papa Was A Rolling Stone” by The Temptations.

Yes were at their peak when they released their Close To The Edge album in 1972. This episode, we celebrate the 50th anniversary of what many consider to be the greatest Progressive Rock album of all time with a deep dive into the song “Siberian Khatru”.

“Siberian Khatru” (Jon Anderson; Themes by Jon Anderson/Steve Howe/Rick Wakeman) Copyright 1972 Topographic Music Ltd

And if you enjoyed this episode, check out our previous episode on Yes:
lovethatsongpodcast.com/yes-owner-of-a-lonely-heart/

TRANSCRIPT:

You your passage on the river of time has brought you here to the next edition of the “I’m In Love With That Song” podcast, one of the many stops along the Pantheon Podcast Network. My name is Brad Page, the host of the show, where we take a song and poke it and probe it together, in the hope that we get a better understanding of what makes a great song.

Now, if you go all the way back to the very beginning of this podcast, even before our first episode, in the introduction to the show, I laid out a few parameters. One of which was that I wasn’t going to cover much progressive rock, because the complexity and length of the songs were just outside the scope of this show. I didn’t want to be doing an hour and a half long marathon episodes, but I am going to make an exception this time… because this is a special occasion.

In September 1972, 50 years ago this month, yes released “Close To The Edge”, a  monumental album in the history of progressive rock, and considered by many to be Yes’s greatest achievement. You could make an argument that “Close To The Edge” is the defining album of the Prog Rock era. So, in tribute to this milestone, put on your lab coats and those safety goggles, because on this episode, we’re going to delve into one of the three masterworks from this album. This is Yes, with “Siberian Khatru”.

[Music]

More band members have come and gone than I can keep track of, so we’re not going into an extensive band history here, but this is the brief backstory that gets us to this album. Yes formed in 1968 with John Anderson on vocals, Chris Squire on bass, Bill Bruford on drums, Tony Kaye on keyboards, and Peter Banks on guitar. This original lineup released two albums, neither album having much impact on the charts.

The first big change happened in 1970, when Peter Banks left the band and was replaced by Steve Howe. Howe was a stellar guitarist, really versatile, and he brought a whole new dimension to the Yes sound. Howe had been paying his dues in and around London, and he was a member of the band Tomorrow, which released one of the seminal psychedelic tracks, a song called “My White Bicycle”, in 1967. Someday we’re going to talk about that song on this show.

This new lineup of Yes released “The Yes Album” in 1971. And this is where the band really found its footing and started sounding like the Yes that we know today.

[Music]

But there were more changes to come. Tony Kaye preferred to play piano & organ, but the band was eager to explore synthesizers and the Mellotron. So Kaye was out, and Rick Wakeman was in. Wakeman had made a name for himself playing keyboards with The Straubs, and he was doing a lot of session work, too. He played the piano on “Morning Has Broken” by Kat Stevens and “Get It On” by T Rex; he played the Mellotron on David Bowie’s “Space Oddity”.  And that brilliant piano part on Bowie’s “Life on Mars”– That’s Rick Wakeman, too.

So it’s worth noting that at this point, Yes featured some of the most gifted musicians in the business. Steve Howe was quickly establishing himself as a guitarist to be reckoned with; Chris Squire was inspiring bass players around the world with his style and his sound; Bill Brewford was becoming a legend among drummers, and Rick Wakeman is one of the greatest keyboard players in rock history. And they were about to prove all of this on their next album.

[Music]

The album called “Fragile” was released in November 1971, and it was their breakthrough album. “Roundabout” and “Long Distance Runaround” would become hit singles and drive sales of this album, reaching number four on the Billboard album chart. It was also the first of many albums to feature Roger Dean’s iconic artwork.

So, what do you do to top an album like “Fragile”? You make “Close To The Edge”.

[Music]

By all accounts, making the “Close To The Edge” album was a difficult, painful process. Yes had developed an approach where they would work out songs, one small section at a time, and then record just that section. They would record these short bits one at a time and then edit them together. It was only after the recording and editing were finished that the band would go back and actually learn the complete song. So, we gotta stop and acknowledge producer Eddie Offord. Eddie was really like the 6th member of the band. He would produce over a half dozen of Yes’ albums. He also produced records for Emerson, Lake and Palmer too. He was behind the glass for some of Prog Rock’s most essential albums, and he certainly earned his pay on this record.

“Siberian Khatru”. Is it KAT-ru or Kat-TRUE? I’ve heard it pronounced both ways. At any rate, this song is credited to John Anderson, with themes by Anderson, Steve Howe and Rick Wakeman.

The song kicks off with a guitar riff by Steve Howe. That’s a perfect example of how he could blend rock, country and jazz all into his own signature style.

[Music]

There are multiple riffs and sections to this song. I’m going to refer to that one as the “country-fried” riff. That only lasts for about 10 seconds. And then we get to the main riff.

[Music]

This section is divided into three measures of four beats, and one measure of three beats. It’s a little easier to follow or count if you just listen to the acoustic guitar track.

[Music]

Let’s listen to this section again.

[Music]

Steve Howe is going to re-enter with a new guitar riff. This is really his main riff for the song.

[Music]

And here comes the riff for the verse.

[Music]

I love this part! The guitar and the organ are doubling each other on the riff.

[Music]

And Chris Squire is playing a really driving bass part.

[Music]

And Bill Bruford is just laying down a great groove on the drums.

[Music]

I just love the way it all comes together.

[Music]

Here’s where Jon Anderson’s vocals come in for the first verse:

[Music]

Anderson is overdubbed harmonizing with himself, as well as some backing vocals from Chris Squire and Steve Howe. Here’s Anderson’s part:

[Music]

All right, let’s talk about these lyrics. I think John Anderson is a great singer, he has such a pure voice. But as a lyricist, he’s not really my cup of tea. I like to be told a story. I like to hear the singer pour their heart out or make a statement. In general, I’m not a big fan of very abstract lyrics. And John Anderson’s lyrics can range from vague to downright impenetrable. Anderson himself has said that this song is, “just a lot of interesting words”. And he said before that he likes the sounds of words as much as their meaning. He also said that this song is about Siberia being so far away, such a remote place, and yet the people that live there still have the same experiences, they have the same wants and needs that we do. There is a bond that we all share, even in the most isolated places. So, it’s impressionistic, it’s open to interpretation, I get it. It’s just not my preference.

The lyrics don’t make any sense when you just read them on paper. But they do sound beautiful when John Anderson sings them with that voice.

[Music]

Here’s what I think of as the chorus.

[Music]

Okay, let’s take a closer look here, because there’s some great stuff going on. First, here’s what the guitar is doing.

[Music]

I love that. Now, here’s what the bass is doing

[Music]

And of course, the drums:

[Music]

There aren’t really any keyboard parts here, so let’s listen to the guitar, bass and drums together, without the vocals.

[Music]

And you can hear that there’s an acoustic guitar that comes in at the end there. Now let’s hear just the vocals.

[Music]

Now let’s hear all of that together again.

[Music]

Once you add the vocals, the whole feel of that section changes, right? Now, the next section features sort of a vocal round that happens, almost a chant. This idea will return later in the song.

[Music]

The main guitar riff returns and listen to what the bass is doing underneath it.

[Music]

Back to the verse. Let’s hear that bass lick again.

[Music]

Back to the verse

[Music]

And let’s hear a little bit more of that bass, the way it walks down the scale there.

[Music]

And this time around, let’s bring up the vocals.

[Music]

Let’s have a closer listen to what we were hearing there. This song is just throwing something new at you around every corner. First, let’s go back and listen to some of those guitar licks.

[Music]

Then there’s the vocal break. And that leads us into the next section, which features Steve Howe on an electric sitar. This isn’t an actual sitar, it’s a standard guitar that’s fitted with extra resonant strings and a special bridge to emulate that sitar sound. Let’s just hear that part.

[Music]

Let’s hear this section altogether:

[Music]

So far, Rick Wakeman has been laying low on the keyboards for a while, but now he gets to step forward on the harpsichord.

[Music]

Let’s hear just that harpsichord.

[Music]

And here’s what the bass and drums are doing to complement that.

[Music]

Let’s put that all back together the way we found it, and see how it sounds.

[Music]

And that transitions immediately into a new section featuring Steve Howe on steel guitar.

[Music]

Between the crying sound of the Steel Guitar and that deep echo, it really gives this part a ghostly air. Underneath that haunting sound, the bass and the drums are playing a pretty heavy part and totally locked in with each other. Let’s listen to that.

[Music]

Man, Bill Bruford and Chris Squire, just two masters of their instruments. Okay, once again, let’s put it all back together and hear this as one piece.

[Music]

And now Steve Howe is just going to let it rip with a good old fashioned guitar solo.

[Music]

And here’s what the bass, drums and keyboards are doing behind that:

[Music]

All right, let’s hear it all together.

[Music]

And then there’s a variation on the “country-fried” riff from the beginning.

[Music]

OK, Chris Squire is doing something interesting on bass here, he’s playing harmonics. Let’s listen to that.

[Music]

Here’s Rick Wakeman on the Mellotron

[Music]

…And back to the verse riff:

[Music]

Let’s listen again to how tightly locked in the guitars and keyboards are on that riff.

[Music]

Here, the chant we heard earlier returns, but this time it continues to escalate, becoming more intense, building for almost a minute and a half.

[Music]

The Mellotron adds to the drama.

[Music]

Bruford’s giving his snare drum a workout.

[Music]

The main guitar riff returns, this time doubled with a swirling effect on it in stereo. Legend had it that this sound was achieved by swinging a microphone around in a circle. But producer Eddie Offord said that they might have swung a microphone around at some point, but not for this track. The effect here was created using some pitch-shifting and an auto panning device.

[Music]

Now, as the song reaches its climax, we get to probably the most intense part of the song, as the main riff swirls underneath, the drums and the vocals come at you in sharp, staccato stabs

[Music]

That sounds almost random, but obviously not, as the voices and the drums are all perfectly in sync.

[Music]

OK, so we know the Yes methodology was to record a section at a time and edit them together. That transition there is the first time in this whole song that I can hear what sounds like an edit. The rest of the song flows pretty seamlessly, but that does feel like an edit point to me.

[Music]

Still, over the course of a nine-minute composition with God knows how many edits, pretty remarkable that only one stands out. Let’s pick it up from that point.

[Music]

Let’s hear more of Chris Squire’s bass.

[Music]

Wakeman is playing a couple of synthesizer parts in the background. Here’s one of them.

[Music]

And on top of all that, Steve Howe is playing a very jazz influenced solo. Check out Bruford’s drum fill there.

[Music]

“Siberian Khatru” by Yes.

Though their “Fragile” album would eventually sell more copies, “Close To The Edge” would be Yes’s highest charting album. Can you imagine there was a time when music this complex and adventurous could reach the top five?  “Close to the Edge” has sold over a million copies.

Drummer Bill Bruford found the whole experience recording this album excruciatingly painful, and quit the band before the record was even released.  Rick Wakeman would last one more album and then he left, too. Yes became a revolving door of members, coming and going. I can count at least 15 people who were in the band at some point, and I know that’s not a complete list. Chris Squire was the only person who was in every version of Yes and played on every album from the beginning, right up until his death in 2015. One of the greatest bass players in rock history.

Thankfully, at the time of this recording, the other players on this album, Steve Howe, Bill Bruford, Rick Wakeman and John Anderson. are still with us today. And producer Eddie offered he’s still alive and kicking, too.

Well, this has been the most challenging episode I’ve ever put together, and one of the longest, too. So, thanks for sticking with me. If you’re a Yes fan, I hope I did it justice. And if you’re not really a fan of Yes or Prague Rock in general, I hope this episode gave you some appreciation for the creativity, the vision and the amazing musicianship that goes into making a song like this.

Thank you for listening to this edition of the “I’m In Love With That Song” podcast. New episodes are coming at you on the 1st and the 15th of every month, so I’ll be back soon with another show. You can find all of our previous shows on our website, lovethatsongpodcast.com as well as on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Google, Amazon, wherever you can find podcasts, you’ll find us.

And if you’re looking for more music podcasts, be sure to check out the other great shows on the Pantheon Podcast Network.

Drop us a line on Facebook, Podchaser, or send an email to lovethatsongpodcast@gmail.com. And don’t forget to support the artists you love by buying their music.

Thanks again for joining me for this episode on “Siberian Khatru” by Yes.

Cheap Trick is one of the great American bands. The new book, This Band Has No Past: How Cheap Trick Became Cheap Trick by Brian Kramp details their history from the very beginning up to their breakthrough album, Cheap Trick At Budokan. It’s an incredible story of hard work & dedication. On this edition of the podcast, Brian joins me to discuss 5 songs that reveal how unique and special Cheap Trick was in their early years. If you only know this band from their hits, this episode is a good introduction to what makes Cheap Trick Cheap Trick.

Besides being an author, Brian Kramp is the host of the “Rock And/Or Roll” podcast, one of my all-time favorite podcasts– an absolute must-listen for every music junkie. Check it out.

TRANSCRIPT:

‘Elo, Kiddies! Welcome to the “I’m in Love With That Song” podcast on the Pantheon Podcast Network. I’m your host, Brad Page Age, and I’ve got something really special lined up for you this time.

Brian Cramp is the host of the “Rock And/Or Roll” Podcast, one of my all-time favorite podcasts. And after a long hiatus, “Rock And/Or Roll” is back with brand new episodes. So I’m very excited about that. But in even bigger news, Brian has a new book out. It’s called “This Band Has No Past – How Cheap Trick Became Cheap Trick”. In this book, he tells the story of one of America’s greatest bands, from their very beginnings right up to their breakthrough album, “Cheap Trick at Budokan”.

The book is exhaustively researched and covers every detail. It was a very entertaining read, so I couldn’t be happier to have Brian join me on this episode to take a look at the early years of Cheap Trick.  For the uninitiated. That’s guitarist and primary songwriter Rick Nielsen, vocalist extraordinaire Robin Zander, the master of the 12-string bass Tom Petersson, and the incredible drummer, Bun E. Carlos.

Brian’s picked five songs as examples of why Cheap Trick is such a great band. And these songs are a great place to start if you’re just getting into Cheap Trick. So, we’re going to talk about these songs, talk about the band, and of course, talk about Brian’s new book. So here’s our conversation about how Cheap Trick became Cheap Trick.

[Music]

BRAD: Well, Brian Cramp, welcome to the “I’m In Love With That Song” podcast. I’m a huge fan of the “Rock And/Or Roll” podcast, so I’m really happy to have you on the show. And I’m excited to introduce people to the new book, “This Band Has No Past – How Cheap Trick Became Cheap Trick”. The book will be available September 6, right

BRIAN: As of now, that’s the plan, yeah.

BRAD: September 6, 2022. But people can preorder it now, which I highly encourage people to do right now– go do it right now.

So, to get started, I know the book is, like, over 300 pages, and covers the earliest history of the band in great detail. So I know this is tough to ask, but if you could just give us a broad summary of where Cheap Trick came from and how the band came to be.

BRIAN: Yeah, that’s what the book really gets into. What I found interesting in telling the story is the collision that happened of the baby boom generation, and the British Invasion and the Beatles, and the British Invasion. And that’s exactly where Cheap Trick comes from.

All of them were teenagers, they loved the British Invasion and they all joined bands. So in the mid to late 60’s, all four members of Cheap Trick had their own band. They were all in different bands, but all in the Rockford area.

But the thing is, everybody was in a band. I have a statistic in the book that by 1967, I think it’s two thirds of males under the age of 23 were in a band. I mean, it’s an insane number, but that’s because at that time, what else did they have to do? They barely even had television. But there was nothing else. There were records, instruments… there’s so many distractions for young people these days, but back then, the internet, video games, all of that rolled into one was a guitar and an amp. That’s what they had.

BRAD: Yeah.

BRIAN: And eventually, the book almost becomes kind of like a day-to-day telling of how they formed, how they built this catalog of songs played almost every night of the week, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, even in bars, almost all of them in Illinois and Wisconsin. They made plenty of treks to Michigan, Iowa, Minneapolis, stuff like that, and a few trips outside of that Midwest. But almost everything they did from like ‘73 to through ‘76 was in Illinois and Wisconsin. But it was every night, and just 1 bar after another.

BRAD: Well, one of the things they always say about the Beatles is that they weren’t really that great of a band until they went to Hamburg and played every night for 8 hours a night. And nothing will hone you as a band, both as an individual musician and as a unit, as that kind of level of playing together, and these guys put in that many hours and then some.

It’s interesting how Rick Nielsen, I think is, when you think of 70’s guitar icons, he’s definitely one of those guys that comes to mind. But he started his career as a keyboard player.

BRIAN: Yeah, well, he played guitar before that. He would go back and forth in the early versions of his band, The Grim Reapers. The Grim Reapers and Toast And Jam kind of merged at one point, when they decided they wanted to write their own songs. And there was this guitar player named Craig Myers, who everybody I’ve talked to says he was just a genius, a virtuoso. So, yeah, Rick kind of became the keyboard player. He would play guitar once in a while, but like on the record. Yeah, they made one record for Epic, and he played guitar on the album

BRAD: The Fuse album, right?

BRIAN: Yeah, they were called the Grim Reapers and the record label made them change their name. So, Rick had this band, the Grim Reapers, going back to 1965, but when they joined forces with the guys from Toast And Jam, it was a completely different band. But they still used the Grim Reapers name, just because that was the name with the most notoriety for getting bookings. It was a completely different band called The Grim Reapers, basically.

BRAD: And the Grim Reapers have a connection to Otis Redding and the infamous plane crash, right?

BRIAN: Yeah, they were the opening band for that show. And also, it’s important to mention Ken Adamany, who became Cheap Trick’s manager and was a huge part of writing this book, a lot of my information comes from him and I mean, he’s become a friend. He told me he considers me a friend, which was insane. Yeah, Ken Adamany owned the club, The Factory, where Otis was supposed to be playing. And Ken Adamany was booking bands since the late 50’s. He had his own band called The Night Trains, which is interesting, because he eventually ended up playing with Steve Miller and Boz Skaggs, who were going to the University of Wisconsin in Madison. And Ken kind of went from playing in his own band to eventually just becoming a guy who booked concerts and promoted concerts. And then he started managing some of his bands, and eventually his entire career became Cheap Trick for a while, pretty much. But, yeah, he owned The Factory, booked Otis Redding; The Grim Reapers, yeah, they were supposed to open. This was not the band that I was just talking about with Craig Myers and Tom Peterson, this was the earlier version of the Grim Reapers. So, the only guy from Cheap Trick in that band was Rick Nielsen. But, yeah, they were supposed to open, and then Otis’s plane crashed into Lake Minona, which is really just 5, 10-minute drive from where I am right now. Yeah.

BRAD: All right, so I had asked you to pick five songs that would kind of be like a primer for the first period of Cheap Trick. And so, let’s dig into some of those songs. The first one that  you wanted to talk about was a song called “Downed”.

[Music]

BRIAN: It’s hard to know when Rick wrote this song. It’s about a period when he thought about moving to Australia in, like, 1971.

BRAD: Yeah, that’s like one of the first lines of the song, right?  He references in Australia.

BRIAN: Yeah.  There’s even a newspaper article when the second version of Fuse that had Stewkey and Tom Mooney from Nazz in the band, when that band broke up, the newspaper said that all the guys were going to different places; Rick is going to Australia, Tom Peterson was going to Germany, Tom Mooney back to California, and Stewkey to Texas. That’s what it said in this newspaper article. And Rick has explained later that one of the reasons he didn’t go was because he couldn’t bring his dog [laughs].

[Music]

BRIAN: I’ve seen him kind of imply, too, that he wrote this song at that time. But the thing is, this song was never played with Sick Man of Europe, the band that he had in ‘71 to ’73, and it was never played in the earliest years of Cheap Trick. So, it’s weird if he would have had this song and then they never played it, so I’m not sure when it, but it is one of the earliest Cheap Trick songs.

BRAD: Well, that’s interesting, too, that it’s one of their earliest songs, but it’s not on their first record. It’s on the second album.

BRIAN: Yeah, most of the songs on the second album they had for the first album, including “I Want You To Want Me”.

BRAD: Me which is so incredible, because the classic thing that everybody says about bands, they have a lifetime to accumulate the songs on their first album and then after that, they’re kind of spent. The sophomore slump and all of that. But here’s a band that had such an incredible catalog of songs that they were able to draw on that for not just their second album, but their third, and even beyond that, which is pretty incredible.

BRIAN: Well, Jack Douglas picked about 20 songs for them to record during the sessions for their first album. And three of those songs were “I Want You To Want Me”, “Surrender” and “Dream Police”.  And then none of them were on the album.

BRAD: Well, “Downed”, the intro of the song is great. It’s this descending melody, really strong melody, reminiscent of, like, “Dear Prudence”, but there’s a million songs that do that. It’s got the Cheap Trick patented harmony vocals in there, and then it kicks in with that really heavy riff. And to me, it just encapsulates everything that’s great about the Cheap Trick sound in that one song. You’ve got it all: you get the melody, you got the heaviness, it’s all there. It’s just a super strong track.

BRIAN: Yeah, it really is. It’s a brilliant piece of work.

[Music]

BRAD: The second song that you picked is a song that brings us back to that first album, which there’s some history to this song, “The Ballad of TV Violence”. Why don’t you tell us the story of this track?

[Music]

BRIAN: Yeah, this is another one. One of the earliest Cheap Trick songs, definitely one of like the first ten. This song, I think, is a perfect example of what was so different about Cheap Trick. If you picture a song like this in 1975, if you really listen to the song, and then ask yourself , “who the hell would write this?”  It’s a very different song. It’s a very unique, brilliant song, I think, but it’s really odd in a lot of ways, because the song is about Richard Speck, a mass murderer, and you’ve got Robin Zander kind of playing that role. By the end, he’s just screaming. Just screaming like a maniac.

[Music]

BRIAN: It’s an insane song. I mean, there’s a concert they played, on Mother’s Day in a park in Rockford in 1975. And they play this song. And you’re just thinking, “This song is insane. And they’re playing it to a bunch of families in the park.” There’s an article in the newspaper about all the families out for this nice spring day. It’s Mother’s Day. And then the band is playing this song

BRAD: This song about a mass murderer. And the original title of the song was “The Ballad of Richard Speck” or something, right?

BRIAN: Yeah. Richard Speck was a spree killer in Chicago, in I think the late 50’s that happened.

BRAD: Yeah. He murdered a bunch of nurses, right?

BRIAN: Yeah. I think he murdered eight young women just in one night. This insane crime. Yeah.

BRAD: It’s a horrific story.

Speaker C: Yes. And since it was in Chicago, it was virtually like a local event for Cheap Trick, you know?

BRAD: So “The Ballad of TV Violence”, it’s got a great stomping riff to it. I love how the guitar kind of follows the vocal. It’s like you said, Robin is just shredding his voice at the end of the song. I imagine this must have been the last session of the day, because I can’t imagine going back and singing anything else after he finishes this take. It’s intense.

[Music]

BRAD: Well, another song off the first record that you picked is a song called “He’s A Whore”. What’s the story behind this one?

BRIAN: This song came after the last two songs we talked about, at least by a little bit, but they had it by ‘75. And I mean, this is kind of the quintessential Cheap Trick song, really, especially the early version of Cheap Trick. And you think about a song like this in 1975, it’s almost a punk song. It’s just a perfect example of how unique and original Rick Nielsen’s songwriting was at the time. Rick Nielsen’s songwriting is probably more influential than we even realize. You know, the bands like Kiss and even Cheap Trick, a lot of the people they influenced are not considered, by elitist or pretentious people or whatever, they’re not considered top-tier bands, or important bands, or whatever. But if you look at all these people that started bands in the ‘80’s and even the ‘90’s, tons of them were influenced by Cheap Trick. And Rick Nielsen was, his songwriting style was very individual and unique. The way he played guitar and the way he wrote songs, he really developed his own style. And I think this song is a perfect example. Nobody else would have written this song.

[Music]

BRIAN: I think it’s just a brilliant song. But it’s so Cheap Trick. It really kind of sums it up about what was unique and special about the early years of Cheap Trick, I think.

BRAD: Yeah, it’s a classic Robin Zander vocal. And, I mean, he still sounds like that today, which is incredible. Then you’ve got Rick’s backing vocals, which are again, it’s a trademark Cheap Trick sound, those backing vocals that he does.

[Music]

BRAD: The song clocks in at 2 minutes and 43 seconds. I mean, there’s not a second wasted in this song. And that’s, that’s a Cheap Trick thing, too. I mean, all of these songs we’re talking about today, but just in general, their songs are always tight. You know, “Downed” is just over four minutes; “Ballad Of TV Violence” clocks in at over five minutes. But that’s about as long as a Cheap Trick song ever really gets.

[Music]

BRIAN: And a really interesting thing I have in the book is, Ken Adamany had told me a story about how Rick Nielsen, when he would write some lyrics, he would call Ken Adamany’s office, he was the manager of Cheap Trick, and he would dictate the lyrics over the phone to Ken’s secretary, who would take them down in shorthand and then she would type them up. So, then Rick had his lyrics typed, you know, and so Ken Adamany still has this piece of yellow paper from a legal pad, says “He’s A Whore” at the top, and then it’s a bunch of shorthand symbols. And the picture of that is in the book. It’s pretty amazing.

BRAD: Shorthand. Talk about a lost art, right?

BRIAN: It’s hilarious, too, because it’s all these shorthand symbols and you get town towards the bottom and you just see the word “gigolo”, because there’s no shorthand symbol for ‘gigolo”.

BRAD: That’s great. All right, so the fourth track on your list jumps ahead to the third album, a song called “Auf Wiedersehen”. It’s the first song we’ve talked about that wasn’t entirely written by Rick Nielsen; this one, Rick and bass player Tom Petersson share writing credit. But what’s the history of “Auf Wiedersehen”?

BRIAN: Well, they had it for the first album. They had this song, was written in ‘76. It seems like the original title of it was “Kamikaze”. There’s at least one article where the author refers to it as that. That might have been the original title. But again, this is a perfect example of how unique and interesting Rick Neilsen’s songwriting was, especially for the time; it’s another song that’s completely insane. I do a podcast with Ken Mills called “Cheap Talk” where Ken has laughed multiple times on the podcast about when I brought up the concept of you go see Cheap Trick at like a state fair, and by the end of the show, Rob Zander is just screaming suicide over and over at the top of his lungs. It’s a perfect example of early Cheap Trick and how out there it was. But also, it’s a great song. It’s such a cool song, the riffs are amazing.

[Music]

BRAD: Yeah, you’re right, it’s a great riff. Great riff. It’s another pretty tight song, this one’s 3 minutes and 41 seconds long. You can clearly hear Tom Petersson’s 12-string bass at the beginning of it, which is kind of another element of their sound. Not that many people are playing– still today, not that many people play the 12-string bass. Kind of an integral part of their sound in a lot of ways. And Robin’s voice, this is his classic punky voice.

[Music]

BRAD: In your book, you point out what a great mimic Robin was as just as a singer. He really is a guy who could sing anything.

BRIAN: Yeah. And it’s interesting, because when Robin first joined Cheap Trick, when he was like, 20, 21 years old, I don’t think he knew exactly what he was capable of. And I think he learned as he went. He mostly sang, like, folk music, and he was playing for years. He would play Neil Young. Bee Gees, early Bee Gees, Crosby Stills and Nash, he was doing a lot of stuff.

BRAD: Yeah, he was mostly performing as a duo with another guitar player, right? They were primarily acoustic kind of stuff.

BRIAN: Right. Yeah, he did that for years. And he had never really been in a rock band. He had a couple of flirtations with it. But if you hear the really earliest recordings that are available of Robin with Cheap Trick, you can tell that he really developed his vocals, and I think actually learned what he was capable of. You know, eventually Rick Nielsen just starts using Robin’s voice as another instrument. That’s another facet of Rick Nielsen’s songwriting is, he only could write some of the songs he wrote because he knew Robin could sing it.

BRAD: Yeah, there’s so many influences in there. You mentioned it right at the top that all of these guys were big fans of The Beatles and the British Invasion. So, you’ve got The Beatles influence and The Who and all of that. But there’s just elements of everything in his songwriting, and the fact that he had a singer who could pull off whatever he gave him, like whether it was a Beatles pop melody or just an all-out screamer, or something that had that kind of punky edge to it. He could write whatever he wanted and Robin could sing it.

BRIAN: Yep. Yeah, that was very important because it gave Rick Nielsen the freedom to just kind of go wild with his songwriting and run the gamut, from nice and sweet and syrupy to completely over the top insane screaming at the top of your lungs.

BRAD: And that brings us to the last song that you had on your list, which is “On Top of the World”, which is one of my favorite Cheap Trick songs. It’s got everything. It’s got that Peter Gunn style guitar riff at the top. Then it goes into that brilliant chorus that is super catchy. The verses have these very… it’s not a three-chord blues type of riff, there’s a lot of chords in there. It’s very kind of Beatlesque. There’s the piano in there, I assume that’s Rick playing the piano on the track? And then at the end, you have almost this ELO-style, Beatlesque bit at the end. I mean, once again, all the elements of what make Cheap Trick great are in this track.

[Music]

BRIAN: So this is the only song I picked that they didn’t have in the early years. This is one that was actually written probably right before “Heaven Tonight”. They had never even played this song live before they recorded the album. But to me, this is one of the most incredible songs of all time, by anyone. And I think it’s really a quintessential example of exactly how brilliant Rick Nielsen was and exactly how great this band was. The arrangement of this song is stunning. I don’t know how anyone could not be impressed by a song like this. This is one of the best examples, I think, of the capabilities of Rick and the band. It’s an amazing, incredible song.

[Music]

BRIAN: The arrangement and the melodies and the instrumentation and the musicians playing it, everything about it is pretty stunning. Yeah, I thought it was a good way to round it out and maybe the best example, just in terms of songwriting and arrangement, it’s one of the best examples you’re going to find of the brilliance of Rick and Cheap Trick.

BRAD: Yeah, and I think it points in the direction that the band would follow. You’ve got a guy who can write a song like this and of course, a guy who can sing it, but also a band who can execute on all these different parts and changes. It’s kind of like a little mini tour de force of what makes Cheap Trick such a great and unique band. It’s, it’s a great song.

[Music]

BRIAN: Yeah, exactly. Both Jack Douglas and Tom Werman, who have worked with a lot of bands, both basically say Cheap Trick are the favorite band they ever worked with, the best band they ever worked with, the tightest band. They took the least amount of time in the studio. They would just hammer everything out, play it perfectly, because they had been doing it for so long by that point. And they were at the top of their game. But also, they were very creative and unique. Rick Nielsen always injects an element of kind of sloppiness or just wackiness into everything, which I think in some ways, is one of the reasons, maybe, that people don’t realize quite how talented and skilled he was, because he never took himself seriously and never really let anybody else take him seriously, either.

BRAD: Right.

BRIAN: But if you look past that, a song like this makes it so obvious how talented they were.

BRAD: So the book is called “This Band Has No Past”. Obviously, you’ve got to love a band to devote that much time and energy into writing a book about them like this. How did you first get into Cheap Trick?

BRIAN: Well, they were always around when I was growing up. But when I was a kid, everything for me was about heavy metal. So, I knew Cheap Trick, I had a couple of their records ‘cause I would buy records at my local record store for a buck. And so, in my first, like, 50 records I had, I had “In Color” and “Dream Police” in there or something. But they were not one of my favorite bands when I was growing up, it wasn’t until I got to college and it was really the revelation of the first album, which I had no idea about until I was in college and started just collecting records like a maniac. And when I heard the first Cheap Trick album, that was kind of the realization of, wait a minute, this is the same band? That album probably my favorite album of all time. It’s very different from anything else in Cheap Trick’s catalog. And it blew me away at the time. And then I got “One On One”, it’s another of my favorite Cheap Trick albums that I just had no idea about when I was growing up. Once I started getting their entire catalog, and learning more about them, they just became my favorite when I was in college. Of course, Kiss was my favorite band growing up.

BRAD: Yeah, me too.

BRIAN: That’s another thing: I went to college in Madison, where Cheap Trick were complete legends. That was like their home away from home. They were from Rockford, but Madison was where Ken Adamany, their manager, was based. They had a huge fan base there. I don’t know, it just went from there. But yeah, I became kind of obsessed.

BRAD: And what inspired you to write the book?

BRIAN: When I started the podcast– which was one of the smartest things I ever did– I met a lot of people; one of my earliest episodes, I had Greg Renoff on, and this is when he was just working on “Van Halen Rising”. I guess that was part of my inspiration. My original idea was to pitch a “33 1/3” book about the first album; that’s that I first started working on. And I started interviewing people, including some people from the record label. And then I talked to this guy named Jim Charney, who was part of signing the band to Epic, worked for Epic at the time. Turns out Jim Charney had been friends with Ken Adamany since the late ‘60’s. And he’s like, “I could put you in touch with Ken”. And for me, Ken Adamany was like this mythic figure. You know, anybody who was a fan of Cheap Thick just knows about Ken Adamany. But by the time I became a fan, that was kind of around the time they broke ties with Ken. So, Jim Charney puts me in touch with Ken Adamany, and then Ken Adamany gets involved. And that’s when I started to realize that might I have to expand the scope of this thing. And then I was supposed to go meet with Ken, and when the meeting finally happened, he got Bun E. Carlos to come. So, then I had this, like, three-and-a-half hour meeting with Ken Adamany and Bun E. Carlos, and it’s like “OK, OK… Now this is really turning into something.” So, this has been like five years in the making.

BRAD: What were the biggest things you learned writing the book?

BRIAN: I guess I learned that with a project like this, there’s a long period of time where you might not, would never even say it out loud or admit it to someone, but you’re not sure you can actually accomplish what you’re trying to accomplish. And at some point you get over the hump and then it’s a downward slope. And that’s an amazing moment when you realize, “I actually am going to pull this off. I actually can do this.” It’s an insane process to get from a blank page to a 400-page book. So I guess one lesson is, you can do it. I wasn’t anybody, but I just tried. So, if you want to do something like this and you think that you can do it, even if you feel like nobody else thinks you can, there’s no harm in trying, so…

BRAD: Well, we mentioned a few times throughout this episode, you host a podcast called “Rock And/O Roll”, you’ve been doing it for years and that’s how you and I first connected. And you’ve recently relaunched the podcast, which I am totally psyched about. So, just drop a few hints or tidbits about what you’ve got coming up on your podcast.

BRIAN: Well, I. Have a whole bunch of interviews in the can with guys from the history of power pop from the 70’s & 80’s, that’s one thing that’s coming up, and probably a series about Colonel Tom Parker, Elvis’s con-man grifter manager. And then episodes here and there that’ll be similar to what I used to do.

BRAD: That’s awesome. I’m particularly looking forward to those power pop interviews, that’ll be great. I said it before, and I will never stop giving you credit for it, it was you and a handful of shows like yours that inspired me to start this podcast. This show would not have ever existed without you, so I thank you so much for that. And I thank you so much for coming on the show today. Brian Cramp, the podcast is “Rock And/Or Roll”. It’s available again on your favorite podcast service. The book is called “This Band Has No Past – How Cheap Trick Became Cheap Trick” It’ll be available September 6, 2022, published by Jawbone Press, right? That’s the publisher?

BRIAN: Yeah, they’re a publisher out of the UK. Do you have their Todd Rundgren book?

BRAD: Mm-hmm.

BRIAN: I figured.

BRAD: Yep. Yep. Yeah. So, Jawbone Press. You can order it from Amazon today. You can get it from your local bookstore. Brian, so good to talk to you. Thank you so much for coming on the show.

BRIAN: All right, thanks, Brad.

BRAD: And thanks to everyone for listening to this episode on Cheap Trick. They’re an amazing band with a really rich, deep catalog. I hope this episode gave you a taste of what the band has to offer and inspires you to check out more of their records. You’ll be glad you did.

Brian’s podcast “Rock And/Or Roll” is part of the Pantheon Podcast Network, right alongside this show and dozens of other music related shows. So please check out “Rock And/Or Roll” and some of the other shows on the Pantheon Network of podcasts.

The “I’m In Love With That Song” podcast will be back in a couple of weeks with a brand new episode, so stay tuned for that. In the meantime, follow us on Facebook and check out our previous episodes on our website, lovethatsongpodcast.com, as well as anywhere you can find podcasts.

Thanks again for listening to this episode on Cheap Trick. Farewell, sayonara, auf wiedersehen, so long.

Few albums in history have had the cultural impact as Marvin Gaye’s “What’s Going On”. Universally loved by music fans around the world, it’s an album like none before it. Few records have captured the zeitgeist and remained as relevant as this album — Marvin’s crowning achievement. On this episode, we take a deep dive into the title cut to discover the elements that make up this masterpiece.

“What’s Going On” (Marvin Gaye, Al Cleveland and Renaldo Benson) Copyright 1970, 1971, 1972 Jobette Music Co, Inc.

If you liked this episode, check out our previous episode featuring the great Marvin Gaye:
lovethatsongpodcast.com/marvin-gaye-i-heard-it-through-the-grapevine/

TRANSCRIPT:

Before you were even born, you were listening. In the womb, you can’t see the world, you can’t smell it or touch it, but you can hear it. Sound is your first connection to the world that awaits you.  My name is Brad Page, and this is the “I’m In Love With That Song” podcast on the Pantheon Podcast Network. On this show, we use our ears to explore the world of music together, on our mission to discover how songs are put together and what makes a great song work.

On this episode, we’ll explore one of the most important records ever made. There are very few albums you can say that truly changed music history. This is one of them. The title song from Marvin Gaye’s classic album, “What’s Going On”.

[Music]

Marvin Gaye seemed like a guy who had it all together. By 1970, he was Motown’s number one male solo artist, the Prince of Motown. He was smooth, he was cool, but underneath that cool exterior, he was a tortured soul. He was racked with self-doubt and shame, raised by a violent, abusive father who was a preacher, a so-called “Man of God” who was a total hypocrite that beat his wife and kids. And Marvin received the worst of the beatings. Thanks to music, Marvin was able to escape from the mistreatment, but I think he always carried some guilt about abandoning the rest of his family.

Marvin’s first taste of success came when he hooked up with Harvey Fuqua from The Moonglows, and Marvin kind of became his protege. But then Fuqua linked up with the Gordy family, and basically sold Marvin’s contract to Barry Gordy and Motown. Marvin was essentially traded for money. That’s a simplification, but you get the gist of it. And that whole experience left Marvin with a sense of disillusionment with the music business, before he even cut his first song for Motown.

But he established himself, had a string of hits as a solo artist, along with duets with Mary Wells, Kim Weston, and most successfully, with Tammi Terrell. The two of them recorded a bunch of classic duets together, including “Ain’t No Mountain High Enough”.

[Music]

And “Ain’t Nothing Like The Real Thing”.

Then on October 14, 1967, Tammi collapsed into Marvin’s arms on-stage during a performance of “Ain’t No Mountain High Enough”. She was eventually diagnosed with a brain tumor; she would die a few years later.

But the Motown machine had to keep churning out those hits, and Marvin was even forced into recording some fake duets with Valerie Simpson pretending to be Tammi Terrell. This just made Marvin even more disillusioned and depressed.

To make matters worse, along the way, Marvin had married Barry Gordy’s sister, Anna, and their marriage was tumultuous, to say the least.

In 1968, Marvin had a huge hit with “I Heard It Through the Grapevine”. We covered that song in-depth, back in episode number 62 of this podcast. If you haven’t heard that one, go check it out. It’s a good one.

“I Heard It Through The Grapevine” was not only a number one smash hit, it also became the biggest selling hit in Motown’s history. And it was a record that Barry Gordy didn’t even want to release. In fact, he fought against it.

In the end, Marvin was ambivalent about his success with “Grapevine”, but one thing it did prove to him was that Barry Gordy and his Motown machine could be wrong. They could make mistakes. Their judgment wasn’t always right. And that empowered Marvin to start making the album that he really wanted to make.

The reverberations from the assassinations of Robert Kennedy and Martin Luther King were still being felt in 1970, along with the riot at the Democratic National Convention and the ongoing effects of the war in Vietnam.  Tammi Terrell had died in March 1970; Marvin spoke at the funeral very emotionally. Then, in June 1970, Marvin headed into the studio to record “What’s Going On”.

Obie Benson was a member of the Four Tops, and when they were in California in May of ‘69, he had witnessed the police attacking protesters in Berkeley, and that inspired him to start writing “What’s Going On” with his songwriting partner, Al Cleveland. Now, the Four Tops were not interested in recording what they saw as a “protest song”, so Cleveland and Benson brought the song to Marvin, and Marvin refined the melody and added to the lyrics.

Marvin’s brother Frankie had served in Vietnam and brought home some horrific stories that he shared with Marvin. Those emotions work their way into “What’s Going On”. Marvin was able to channel his feelings about his brother’s pain, his own sadness over the loss of Tammi Terrell, and his frustrations over his career. All of it was poured into “What’s Going On”.

Marvin Gaye, Obi Benson and Al Cleveland share writing credit on “What’s Going On”. The musicians on the track include members from the legendary Motown session players called the Funk Brothers, including bass player James Jamerson. But Marvin wanted to mix it up, too, so he brought in some outside musicians. Rather than use the regular Funk Brothers drummers, he brought in a drummer with big band experience, Chet Forrest.

The song opens with the sound of a small crowd, like we’ve just joined some friends at a party.

[Music]

Those voices include some of the Funk Brothers and two members of the Detroit Lions, Mel Farr and Lim Barley, friends of Marvin’s, who he invited into Motown Studio, the “Hitsville” studio. The voice you can hear loudly proclaiming, “Hey, man, what’s happening?” Is LG Stover, a Motown employee and a trusted friend of Marvin’s.

Now that saxophone part that opens the song is one of the most recognizable in history. Marvin worked hard with the arranger and the musicians to refine the tracks exactly as he imagined them, but he also knew magic when he heard it. And there are two key features of this song that were completely accidental, but so perfect that Marvin kept them and they became essential elements of the song:

Eli Fontaine was an alto sax player that Marvin brought in to play on the song. Eli listened to the track and then played a little bit on his saxophone just to warm up. Then he told Marvin he was ready to record. Marvin said, “Nope, you can go home. We got what we needed.” What Eli had played for his warm up, just noodling around, was perfect. What was captured on tape and became part of music history isn’t even a first take– it’s a rehearsal. That part is so memorable, it’s one of the main hooks of the song, and that is the only time that that part appears in the song, just right there at the very beginning. Let’s listen to the whole intro again into the first verse.

[Music]

OK, let’s spend some time on how these tracks were put together, because there’s a lot of layers here. There are two guitar parts. I’m going to play them together, but pan them left and right so that you can differentiate them, but also see how they work together.

[Music]

There’s a few tracks of drums and percussion. Here’s the drum part.

[Music]

There’s a conga part

[Music]

And also this percussion part.

[Music]

There’s a piano part, which I believe was played by Marvin himself.

[Music]

And there’s vibes, played by Jack Brokensha

[Music]

There’s more saxophone on there, too

[Music]

And of course, the bass played by James Jameson.

[Music]

There are also background vocals that are present through the whole song

[Music]

So now that we’ve heard those parts in isolation, let’s go back and listen to that verse again and see how all those parts come together.

[Music]

I’m just curious if any of those parts jump out at you now, now that you know what they sound like individually, let’s hear the second verse.

[Music]

I mentioned before that there were two serendipitous events that ended up becoming a big part of the song. One was that saxophone introduction. The other was a mistake by engineer Ken Sands. Marvin had recorded two different takes for the lead vocal, and he wanted to hear them separately and decide which one to keep. But Ken Sands accidentally played them both back at the same time, and when Marvin heard them together, he liked the way that sounded, the way the two parts weaved around each other. And he decided to keep both vocal parts. This multi layered vocal style became a sound that Marvin would return to throughout his career.

[Music]

That multi-layered vocal style became a technique that Marvin would return to on many songs throughout the rest of his career. Now we’re heading towards the chorus and there’s a couple of new elements added here. There are some finger snaps:

[Music]

And a string section, arranged by David Van De Pitte, whose arrangements were a critical part of dozens and dozens of Motown hits.

[Music]

Let’s listen to it all together now.

[Music]

In a song full of great moments, this may be my favorite part. The way Marvin syncopates the phrases “picket lines and picket signs”, the sensitivity in his voice when he sings “don’t punish me with brutality”, something he had plenty of personal experience with. And the way his voice just soars when he hits that chorus, it’s total perfection.

[Music]

And barely audible in the mix, you can hear Marvin add this:

[Music]

The next section is an instrumental break where you’d normally hear something like a sax solo. But here, Marvin fills the space with his own voice.

[Music]

And let’s just take a minute to appreciate the groove that the bass, drums and percussion are laying down behind this party.

[Music]

And here’s the last verse.

[Music]

Notice right there that Marvin says, “I’ll tell you what’s going on”.

[Music]

One small little detail that I actually think is important: most people probably interpret the title of this song as a question “What’s going on?”, question mark. But in the actual song title, there is no question mark. In fact, I’ve heard that in the original lyrics, there was a question mark, but by the time they finished the song, Marvin removed it intentionally. The song, and the album, isn’t phrased as a question. There’s no punctuation. So the song can be read as a question and a statement. Marvin is asking us what’s happening, but he’s also telling you what he’s seeing and feeling. He’s being a reporter, a journalist in song, documenting the world around him.

[Music]

And if you ever wondered what the crowd was talking about in the background there, well, here you go.

[Music]

At one point, you can hear a voice refer to someone as “Gates”. That was Marvin’s nickname, Gates. Let’s hear that final passage one more time.

[Music]

And let’s listen to James Jameson’s bass one more time.

[Music]

Marvin Gaye – “What’s Going On”

As the legend goes, when Berry Gordy first heard the song, he said it was the worst thing he’d ever heard and refused to release it. Well, Marvin told them that he wouldn’t record a single thing for Motown until they released this song. He even decided that he’d just quit music and play football for the Detroit Lions. He’d never actually played football before, but that didn’t seem to deter him.

Eventually, Marvin won out. There was just too much demand for a new Marvin Gaye single, and Marvin wasn’t going to give them anything else. “What’s Going On” was their only option. So they released it.

By then, Berry Gordy had pretty much relocated to California, so it was easier for other people to get the single out without Gordy’s approval. Story goes that Gordy was furious that they released the song, until he discovered that it had sold a hundred thousand copies on the first day… then he changed his tune.

Both the single and the album have sold millions of copies and they frequently topped the list of greatest songs and greatest albums of all time. But beyond the charts and the stats, this album endures because it touches people, it moves people, it inspires people. It’s bigger than Motown, it’s bigger than Marvin.

Marvin Gaye would lead a troubled life that ended in tragedy. But this album that he created is a singular perfect piece of art. Nobody can do better than that.

I used a number of sources to research this episode, but my main resource was a book called “What’s Going On” by Ben Edmonds. I think it’s out of print now, might be a little tough to find, but it’s a fantastic book. Highly recommended.

Thanks for listening and for being a part of this journey. The adventure continues in two weeks when we’re back with another new episode. Until then, visit us on Facebook or on Podchaser, where you can leave comments and feedback. And if you enjoyed the show, share it with your friends and follow the show so that you never miss an episode.

We are but one show on the Pantheon Podcast network. Be sure to check out some of their other great shows. And remember to support the artists and the music you love.

Only love can conquer hate. That was Marvin Gaye and “What’s Going On”.

Creedence Clearwater Revival were quite the phenomenon from 1967 to 1972. During that short period– only 5 years– they racked up ten songs in the Top 20, 5 of them making it to #2. In the middle of that run, they released “Run Through The Jungle” in April 1970. The song is often identified with the Viet Nam war, but we explore the true roots of the song and listen to the individual elements that make up this great track.

“Run Through The Jungle” (John Fogerty) Copyright 1970 Jondora Music

TRANSCRIPT:

Hey, friends, it’s Brad Page, host of the ““I’m In Love With That Song”” podcast here on the Pantheon Network. It’s time to put on your explorer helmet and spelunking boots one more time, because we’re about to explore another song and see what we discover. As always, no prior musical knowledge or experience is required; we don’t get technical here. If you’re willing to just listen a little more intently, and want to learn more about what goes into making a great song, you’ve come to the right place.

This time, we are heading back to 1970 to cross paths with Creedence Clearwater Revival and explore one of my favorite songs of theirs, “Run Through The Jungle”.

The band that we know as Creedence Clearwater Revival began in El Cerrito, California, sometime around 1959. Back then, they were known as the Blue Velvets: John Fogerty on guitar, his brother Tom also on guitar, and both of them shared lead vocals back then, with Stu Cook on bass and Doug Clifford on drums. Here’s a single recorded by the Blue Velvets in 1961 called “Come On Baby”. It was written by Tom Fogerty, and it’s Tom singing lead.

In 1964, they signed a contract with Fantasy Records. The record company changed their name to the Gollywogs– which they hated. Blue Velvets wasn’t a great name, but I don’t know why the label thought Gollywogs was any better. I’d hate that name, too.

Anyway, the Gollywogs recorded quite a few singles. Here’s one from 1965 called, “You Got Nothing On Me”.

In 1967, the band changed their name to Creedence Clearwater Revival. Their first single as CCR, a song called “Porterville”, didn’t chart. But their second single, their version of “Susie Q”, that was a hit.

“Susie Q” would be their only Top 40 hit that was not written by John Fogerty. By now, John had become the driving force in the band. He was writing the songs, he was singing the songs, he was producing the records. Creedence Clearwater Revival was now essentially John Fogarty’s band.

A boatload of hit singles would follow. We may revisit a couple of them on the show in the future, you never know. But today, we’re going to focus on the song “Run Through The Jungle”.

Originally released as a single in April 1970, it was what they used to call a “Double A-sided” single, because both sides of the 45 record were earmarked for potential hits and radio play. The other side of this single was “Up Around The Bend”, which was indeed a hit, too. Both songs were included on their album “Cosmos Factory”. Released in the summer of 1970, “Cosmos Factory” was their fifth studio album. Creedence would eventually release seven studio albums; six of them became platinum albums, selling over a million copies each. In fact, “Cosmos Factory” would go on to sell 4 million copies. It’s their biggest selling album, and in my opinion, it’s their best.

“Run Through The Jungle” was the song that closed out Side One of the album. The song opens with a pretty psychedelic effect. Sounds to me like a piano in the middle with guitars panned left and right, heavy with echo. The guitar in the right channel begins to oscillate. That’s when the echo feeds back on itself. This is an ominous way to start the song.

There’s that tambourine that sounds like a rattlesnake. And then the main guitar riff comes in, which is sitting primarily in the right channel. Tom fills and hand claps in the left channel.

The rest of the band joins in and we’re off.

And that’s pretty much it. Musically, the song stays with the same riff for the duration of the song. That repetition of the riff, it’s almost like a drone. It’s hypnotic. It sets such a mood to me, it never gets boring. Here’s the first verse.

The vocals are thick with a slapback echo. It’s very 1950s style sound. Let’s listen to John Fogarty’s vocal track.

Now, here’s something interesting. This song has often been interpreted as being about Vietnam. The song came out in 1970 when the war was still raging, and the song’s been used in movies and tv shows as a soundtrack to Vietnam era scenes. But when Fogerty wrote this song, he wasn’t thinking about the jungles of Vietnam. He was thinking about the urban jungles right here in America. Here’s a quote from John Fogerty from an interview he did with Dan Rather back in 2016. He said, “the thing I wanted to talk about was gun control and the proliferation of guns.” I think that puts a whole different spin on the imagery in the song. Let’s pick it up at the second verse.

I know gun control is a controversial issue, so I’m going to let John Fogerty speak for himself. Here’s a clip from that same interview”

“I think I remember reading around that time that there was one gun for every man, woman and child in America, which I found staggering. We’re talking about privately held guns. Um, and so at somewhere in the song, I think I say 200 million guns are loaded. Not that anyone else has the answer. I did not have the answer to the question. I just had the question. I just thought that it was disturbing that it was such a jungle for our citizens re to just to walk around in our own country, at least having to be aware that there are so many private guns, um, owned by some responsible and maybe many irresponsible people.”

Let’s hear the vocal track for this verse again. And the first line has one of those classic idiosyncratic fogey phrasings on the word “Heard”.

John Fogerty takes a harmonica solo here, but let’s check out some of the backing tracks here as well. Like all Creedence songs, they keep it pretty basic. Just a couple of guitars, bass and drums.

First, let’s check out those bass and drums. That’s a pretty gnarly bass sound. Let’s listen to a little bit of that for a while. Here’s the main electric guitar part. I think this is two separate guitar parts. One in the left, one in the right. The one on the right is louder, but it could just be one guitar. There’s so much tremolo effect on the guitars, it’s hard to tell. It’s a great riff though.

That harmonica part along with the other guitar part played by Tom Fogerty, plus some overdubbed percussion and some acoustic guitar accents.

The harmonica continues to play on in between the vocal lines.

Let’s listen to a little bit more of that harmonica’s unsettling effects from the opening of the song return some of it played backwards this time.

“Run Through The Jungle” – Creedence Clearwater Revival

Here’s an interesting fun fact for you: According to the Billboard Hot 100, Creedence has the distinction of being the band with the most number two hits without any number one hits. Over the course of their career, Creedence had ten songs that made the top 25 of those made it all the way to number two, but none of them made it to number one. Just an interesting bit of trivia.

Thanks for listening to this edition of the “I’m In Love With That Song” podcast. New episodes of this show magically appear on the 1st and the 15th of every month, so we’ll see you back here in about two weeks. Until then, you can catch up with all of our previous shows on our website, lovethatsongpodcast.com or on Apple Podcasts, Google, Amazon, Spotify. Basically, anywhere you can find podcasts, you’ll find our show.

You can keep in touch with us on Facebook, just search for the “I’m In Love With That Song” podcast and you can write a review on Podchaser or wherever it is that you listen to the show. And if you have friends who love music as much as you do, share this show with them. I really appreciate that.

We are part of the Pantheon network of podcasts, where you’ll find a ton of other great music related shows, so check them out.

And thanks again for listening to this episode on Creedence Clearwater Revival and “Run Through The Jungle”.

RESOURCES:

Credence Clearwater Revival
https://www.creedence-online.net

John Fogerty
http://www.johnfogerty.com

Cosmos Factory Album
https://www.discogs.com/Credence-Clearwater-Revival-Cosmos-Factory/master/32142

Dan Rather Interview with John Fogerty
https://www.axs.tv/programming/dan-rather/

Facebook Page for the Podcast
https://www.facebook.com/lovethatsongpodcast

Podchaser
https://www.podchaser.com/

Todd Rundgren never became a household name, but he has legions of fans around the world. I’m one of ’em. What has always drawn me to Todd, then and now, is not just his way with a tune and a willingness to do anything musically– it’s his search for something deeper, more meaningful, than your typical pop song. This is a prime example of melding melody and message, producing pop with purpose. What does it mean to be a “real man”? Todd answered that question in 1975.

“Real Man” (Todd Rundgren) Copyright 1975 Warner-Tamerlane Publishing Corp and Humanoid Music

— This is one of the many great podcasts on the Pantheon Podcast network, the place to be for music-obsessed listeners like you & me!