Tom Petty – The Life And Music with special guest Gillian Gaar

In this episode, we welcome back author Gillian Garr to discuss her new book, “Tom Petty: The Life and Music“. We’ll take a look at the fascinating career of one of rock’s most beloved figures. From Petty’s early encounter with Elvis Presley to the eventual rise of The Heartbreakers, this episode is packed with anecdotes and insights that shed light on Petty’s enduring legacy.

Gillian shares stories about Petty’s struggles with record labels, his creative partnerships, and the pivotal moments that defined his career. We discuss the making of iconic albums like “Damn The Torpedoes” and “Wildflowers”, as well as the challenges he faced, including battles with addiction and the pressures of fame. With a mix of nostalgia and admiration, this episode is a heartfelt tribute to Tom Petty’s music and the impact he had on fans and fellow musicians alike.

Pick up Gillian’s book here:
https://www.amazon.com/s?k=tom+petty+the+life+and+music

TRANSCRIPT:

Greetings, all you rebels, refugees and heartbreakers. Thanks for joining me for another episode of the “I’m In Love With That Song” podcast, coming to you on the Pantheon Podcast Network. I’m your host, Brad Page.

Tom Petty is a big favorite here on the show– in fact, we first covered him way back on Episode 2 of this podcast. I’m a big fan of Tom, and the Heartbreakers too, as a band. Mike Campbell is one of my favorite guitarists of all time. So, when I heard that author Gillian Gaar has a new book out, celebrating the life and music of Tom Petty, I wanted to get her back on the show to talk about Tom and his remarkable career. You may remember Gillian from her appearance on this podcast, about eight months ago, when she joined me to talk about the 50th anniversary of Queen’s “Night at the Opera” album. It’s a pleasure to have her back this time to talk about the late, great Tom Petty.

Here’s my conversation with Gillian Gaar:

Brad Page: Well, Gillian Gaar, thanks for coming back on the podcast. And you’ve got a brand new book that’s out now. It’s out for the holidays– Hint, hint, folks, go pick it up. Perfect Christmas gift for any Tom Petty fan out there. This is a great package, great new book, “Tom Petty: The Life and Music”. And Gillian’s here to talk with me about the fascinating career of Tom Petty. He’s one of my favorite songwriters. There’s really great stuff in here of the whole band, the Heartbreakers, as well as Tom. I just had a great time reading the book.

Gillian Gaar: Oh, good.

Brad Page: Yeah. So, let’s start talking about Tom Petty. One of the most formative things about him, which I don’t know that I knew this before I read the book, is that Tom had actually seen Elvis Presley at a very young age, and that kind of set the stage for him for his future career in a lot of ways.

Gillian Gaar: Yeah, I had no idea he had a close encounter with Elvis either. And I’ve written a lot about Elvis, so that was interesting. And, yeah, it came before Tom was really that interested in rock music as well. I mean, what’s interesting about that encounter is that it wasn’t a concert; he was watching Elvis on a film set. But he was just kind of dazzled by, I suppose you’d say, the accoutrements of show business and what that was like. Elvis had come back from the army and was focusing on making films. And his film “Follow That Dream”, which is about a family of homesteaders, was set in Florida. And one of Tom’s relatives worked as local crew on film shoots. So he was working on this film shooting, so he asked Tom, who’s, you know, like 10, would he want to come and meet Elvis? And he said,  “well, sure”. And so he was, he was brought to the film set, they were filming on location. So then all the Cadillacs pull up with his entourage, the Memphis Mafia guys, and the anticipation’s building, and then Elvis comes and yeah, he was just really impressed by that moment of the girls shrieking and waving their album covers that they want to get signed.

Brad Page: Right.

Gillian Gaar: And fans would break past the barricades and you know, in and try and hug Elvis. So, oh, shop ruined, got to do it again. And Tom was just dazzled by this whole experience. And yeah, he talked a bit to Elvis, got to shake his hand and all that. And when he gets home that night, his friend who lives next door just wants to know all that information, every bit of detail, you know, about what happened. And Tom ended up trading a slingshot to his friend for a box of 45s, which included some Elvis 45s.

Brad Page: And then of course, like so many people of that era, kind of the next big thing was seeing the Beatles on Ed Sullivan. And that was a life-changing experience for him.

Gillian Gaar: Yeah, I mean I was watching too… though I didn’t, you know, end up in a rock band later.  But we were all one of those 73 million people watching that night.

Gillian Gaar: It’s almost a universal thing for a whole generation of– and more– of musicians, that launching off spot. And Tom was one of them.

Gillian Gaar: I thought, though, in Tom’s case, you know, there he is watching the Beatles at 13 or so and just think, if you could have told him that in 20-some years he was going to be making a record with George Harrison, think how flabbergasted he would have been.

Brad Page: I know, right?

Gillian Gaar: He wouldn’t have believed you.

Brad Page: It’s incredible, I mean, how many of those 73 million that watched that show got that to that point? It’s really something.

So he forms– he has a couple of bands, but the first one that really kind of comes together and does anything is a band called Mudcrutch. And that’s where Tom meets Benmont Tench and Mike Campbell, who become kind of his left- and right-hands through the rest of his career.

Gillian Gaar: Yeah, yeah, Mike Campbell in particular was always brought on with every project, solo as well as the band projects.

Brad Page: And Mudcrutch has some success. They go out to California, they get signed to Shelter Records. But it kind of falls apart, right?

Gillian Gaar: Yeah, it fell apart pretty quickly. They had all the Hollywood dreams, but I mean admittedly the single they put out was not that strong, either. I mean, I think it got some okay reviews in Billboard, but it didn’t take off. And the record label seemed to lose interest in them pretty quickly. Well, they dropped them– except for Tom. They hung onto to Tom because they recognized that he had the talent. He should probably be the main focus.

Brad Page: Right. They could see the potential. And he was actually doing some work as a songwriter; I think you mention in the book that he had a very short period where they were teaming him up with some LA studio musicians, and that really didn’t work for him. He’s a band guy and so he ends up kind of slowly but surely bringing in the members of the Heartbreakers, including those guys that came from Mudcrutch and they form this new band, The Heartbreakers.

Gillian Gaar: Yeah, and you think about Mudcrutch, that was just the band named Mudcrutch, it was not Tom Petty and the Mudcrutchers or something. And his subsequent band, he thought of in those terms as well. They weren’t going to name it Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers or Tom Petty and the such and such, but, one, it made sense. He was the one that had the contract with the record company.

Brad Page: Mhm.

Gillian Gaar: So he was kind of bringing them on as sort of his side musicians, except he wanted them to be a band and not just side musicians. So yeah, I think it was also at the label’s instigation that it became Tom Petty and The Heartbreakers.

Brad Page: So Tom Petty and The Heartbreakers officially make their first album, and it comes out to, you know, it got some good reviews but it didn’t really do very much. And this is another thing I always thought was a really fascinating little aspect of the Tom Petty story, is that there’s this one guy, a promotions guy named John Scott, who almost single-handedly breaks the song “Breakdown” as a single. And it just shows you that there’s always these unsung heroes behind the scenes. John Scott really was an important figure in getting the Heartbreakers really going, getting their career going.

Gillian Gaar: Yeah, it’s interesting to think about what if he hadn’t been there.

Brad Page: Right.

Gillian Gaar: You know, then maybe we wouldn’t have heard of the Heartbreakers. Because, as you say, the album got some good reviews, but it didn’t zoom up the charts and sell a million copies or anything. So, you know, kind of a lukewarm success, and they might not have progressed further.

Brad Page: John Scott heard something in the song “Breakdown” and started to get it on the radio. And before you know it, it’s a, it’s a minor hit, but it gets them going.

Brad Page: And then their second record, “You’re Gonna Get It”, which is, I think, a much stronger record than the first one, has some great tracks on it. “Listen to Her Heart”’s one of my favorites.

Gillian Gaar: Yeah, yeah. That’s the one with the cocaine line in it, isn’t it?  Right, yeah, that. got him in a bit of trouble because he referenced cocaine, even though it wasn’t really a positive reference. It’s more of a bribe than anything.

Brad Page: It sort of sets a precedent for Tom, that he would not change it. He was not going to budge on that. And that remained an element of his personality and his career through the rest of his life.

Gillian Gaar: That’s true, that’s true. Very much so.

Gillian Gaar: I remember he said they wanted him to change to champagne, and his argument was, you know, you can get cheap champagne in the store. That’s not much of a special thing to offer someone. Well, logically, that makes sense.

Brad Page: And then as they go into their third album,  and it’s a convoluted story, but Shelter Records was distributed by ABC, or a subsidiary of ABC Records, and ABC Records gets purchased by MCA at the time, one of the large record conglomerates. And Tom doesn’t like the fact that his contract is essentially, he’s sort of owned by people that he never signed a deal with.

Gillian Gaar: Right, right.

Brad Page: And so he’s fighting against this contract, and eventually to get out of it, he declares bankruptcy.

Gillian Gaar: Yeah, that was a pretty clever move.

Brad Page: On his part it was, but incredibly risky, too. And you know, in the meantime, he’s not getting paid, and the band’s not getting paid. And you know, they’re trying to get this third record off the ground.

Your first two records could be so-so, but by the time you get to the third record, you really, it was kind of a make-or-break kind of thing, and you got to start having legitimate hits if your career is going to continue. And so he’s in this very precarious place, where the first two records, they did okay, but nobody was beating down the doors to release Tom Petty records. And now he’s in a contractual dispute with his record label. Usually you almost always lose when you’re an artist in that perspective. Somehow, he’s obstinate and persistent enough that he pulls it out.

And so, amongst all of this precarious situation, Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers end up releasing their third album, “Damn The Torpedoes”, which still to this day is my favorite Tom Petty record. I think this is a fantastic record. It’s as close to a perfect record as Tom Petty ever got. I think it’s so great.

Gillian Gaar: Yeah, that’s a record, you just, you remembered seeing it everywhere. Not just hearing it everywhere, but yeah, I remember Tower Records and they would have the, those huge blow ups of the album covers, and that was there. I mean, that was probably the first Tom Petty record I really noticed. Because of that, because of seeing that everywhere.

Brad Page: Yeah, it was, it was exactly what he needed. It was a big hit record. It had a number of singles on it.

Just so many great songs on this record. I’m a huge fan. And that’s 1979, Tom Petty and “Damn The Torpedoes”.

That’s followed up by a record called “Hard Promises”. And we’re smack-dab into another controversy, because the record label, now having had a big success with “Damn The Torpedoes”, decides that they want to release this new album at a brand-new price point of $9.98. And Tom will not have it.

The average record price at the time was $8.98. And so he goes into a whole big fight with the record company about not releasing this record at a dollar more. It’s gotta be $8.98, to the point where he was almost gonna name the album “$8.98”.

Gillian Gaar: Yeah. They called that “superstar pricing”. That was the surge pricing of its day.

Brad Page: Yes. Yeah. And it’s fascinating that, you know, he went from struggling with those first two records, had one big record, and suddenly now he’s a superstar, right? And they think they can charge a dollar more per record, which, you know, in those days, it was a big deal. $9.98 was a lot of money for a record back then.

Gillian Gaar: Yeah.

Brad Page: Of course, now we pay literally four times that for vinyl these days. But, yeah. And a number of great songs on the “Hard Promises” record. “The Waiting” is probably my favorite track from that one.

Brad Page: And then Tom seems to be everywhere, because he has this huge hit with Stevie Nick, “Stop Dragging My Heart Around”. And he just seemed to be, like, on the radio all the time. Between his solo career and this song with Stevie, it was, you could almost guarantee: turn on the radio and there’ll be something by Tom Petty on.

Gillian Gaar: Yeah. It did seem like that kind of a third little golden era for him. I think it kind of harmed radio play in some instances, though, you know. Well, we got the Stevie Nicks song on. Why Do we need to play the Heartbreakers kind of thing.

Brad Page: Yeah. And I think “Hard Promises” did have a dip in sales compared to “Damn The Torpedoes”. And you could chalk some of that up to a little bit of over-saturation, maybe? And the fact that he’s almost competing with himself by having this song out with Stevie, because that was technically a Stevie Nicks song.

Gillian Gaar: Yeah. Yeah. It wasn’t on their on his album.

Brad Page: Correct, yeah. 1982, they released their fifth album, “Long After Dark”, which features another huge Tom Pety hit, “You Got Lucky”. That’s such a great song.

Gillian Gaar: Yeah.

Brad Page: I mean, he’s just racking up the hits at this point. And this is kind of a decisive moment for the Heartbreakers, because this is the last album for a while that they record with bass player Ron Blair. He was one of the original members, and he kind of gets fed up with the whole thing, and he leaves the band. So The Heartbreakers suffer their first casualty at this point, and they bring in a guy named Howie Epstein to play bass for them.

Gillian Gaar: Yeah, it’s interesting that sometimes when they get their big break and they’re famous now, that it doesn’t always sit well with everyone. You think it would. You think, “Oh, yes, this is what we’ve been striving for”. And the musician themselves probably thought that, too. But then the constant touring… there are different kinds of pressures when you’re a success than when you’re trying to be a success. But then he missed the band and came back later. Seems like he was able to do that.

Brad Page: Right? Well, we’ll get to that, too. But, Mike Campbell talks about this in his book, that at some point early on, the management or whatever came to them and basically said in, you know, in no uncertain terms, that Tom is the star and you guys are hired hands, and it’s not an equal split. So, “We love you guys, you’re a great band. But make no mistake, Tom is where the money is.” And the guys in the band kind of had to live with that. And Mike Campbell seems to have rolled with those punches, but I think that’s when things started chafing with Stan Lynch, who was the drummer.

Gillian Gaar: Yeah. Yeah. I think also, as The Heartbreaker’s career progresses, they’re working with Tom, but then there are longer breaks between the albums, and those other players like Mike Campbell, they go off and they work with other performers, too. So they’re developing kind of their own identity and their own career as well. In addition, you know, Tom’s the focus, The Heartbreakers are the focus. But then they start adding other things in there themselves, and I think that helped. But Mike, he seems to have been the savviest in learning how to negotiate that. I think he’s told this, yeah, you’re the side man, but he thinks, “Okay, how can I use this to my best advantage? How do I make this really work for me?” I think that’s the attitude he took.

Brad Page: Right.

Gillian Gaar: And I think that explains a lot to how Tom always turned to him when he was doing new projects. Sometimes, in starting an album, Mike would be the only person he’d bring in at first.

Brad Page: Right, right.

In 1985, they make this– to me, it’s sort of the odd album in Tom’s whole career– the “Southern Accents” record. Not my personal favorite record, but it’s a really interesting record, just because it’s a real departure, I think.

Gillian Gaar: Well, that’s one where he starts working with Dave Stewart.

Brad Page: Yes.

Gillian Gaar: So, see, it starts off as more of a Southern accent, and then Dave Stewart gets in there, so it’s kind of less of an accent. And there are some songs that were going to be on the album that were dropped, and they appear as B sides and, oh, they’ve come out on probably some of the many box sets they’ve done. And really, those songs would have fit better with the whole “Southern Accents” theme.

Brad Page: Yeah, it’s kind of a schizophrenic record because, like you said, he has this idea of kind of revisiting his– because, you know, he grew up in Florida, and he kind of wants to revisit his Southern roots. And so he starts heading down that vein and they cut a bunch of tracks, and then he starts to work with Dave Stewart from the Eurythmics, who is not Southern at all, and takes the rest of the record in a whole different direction. And you get things like, you know, “Don’t Come Around Here No More”, which was a big hit, but that sounds nothing like any connection to Southern rock or whatever. It’s a strange record.

Gillian Gaar: Yeah. I mean, I think some of his bandmates were frustrated with that, too, and not that keen on working with Dave Stewart at first, though obviously, they got over that and produced a, you know, ended up turning out a good album.

Brad Page: It was a really successful record, but still, you know, when I look back at his records, this one always seems to me to be the odd one out. But people do love that record.

We start to see him get involved in, well, he does Live Aid, but he also gets involved in Farm Aid, the initial launch of Farm Aid. He and The Heartbreakers, they tour as Bob Dylan’s backup band, essentially, which was pretty fascinating.

Gillian Gaar: Yeah. Oh, they really liked doing that. I mean, again, that generational thing. Bob had a huge influence on people, but yeah, through their work on Live Aid. You know, I love how it came together.

Brad Page: Yeah, you tell the story in the book how they didn’t really even know what they were getting into. Their manager, it seems like essentially just booked them for Live Aid and they said, “Okay”. And they were halfway across the country or whatever. And it was, “All right, you guys, you got to get up and get on this plane and fly to Pennsylvania” or whatever. “We’ll do this gig”. And then they show up and it’s Live Aid, and they’re like, wow!

Gillian Gaar: Yeah, there’s this massive audience and oh, by the way, you’ve got like a worldwide audience of so many millions.

Brad Page: Right. Not only a stadium packed full, but you’re being literally broadcast around the world. So, you know, “better be good”

Gillian Gaar: “ Relax. Have a good time.” “Oh, okay.”

Brad Page: And so, yeah, working with Dylan, of course, that sets us up for some things that come down the road. But almost immediate impact from that is they work on their next record, which is “Let Me Up, I’ve Had Enough”, comes out in 1987 and that features at least one co-write with Bob Dylan.

Brad Page: So there was a lasting relationship established between Tom and Dylan. I think “Let Me Up, I’ve Had Enough” is an underappreciated Heartbreakers record. It’s one of my favorites. I think this record deserves a little bit more love than it typically gets.

Gillian Gaar: Well, it’s got a great title for one thing. I’ve always liked that aspect about it.

Brad Page: Right.

Gillian Gaar: But then, you know, that’s kind of the problem when you put out a lot of albums.

Brad Page: There’s an ebb and flow of everyone’s career, right? There was certainly more to come from Tom Petty, but the same year, 1987, just a really frightening experience: his house burns down. Luckily, his instruments are safe. But you know, he and his, not just him, but I mean, he’s married with two daughters. I think he had both of his daughters at this point, right?

Gillian Gaar: Yeah, but one of them was at a friend’s home. So it was only one daughter that had to go through that. But, you know, they lost all their stuff, and think how traumatizing that would be.

Brad Page: All your photo albums, I mean all of that kind of stuff goes up in flames, literally. And then it turns out to be a case of arson, which is even more frightening. It wasn’t accidental, somebody set his house on fire.

Gillian Gaar: Yeah. And it’s still unsolved to this day, so we don’t know who it was or why they did it. So, you know, he had to live with that for the rest of his life.

Brad Page: Yes. And he’s a public figure, and you can only imagine, like, the thoughts that go through your head now, you know, that it becomes very real, the danger of being a public figure. And now you’re out on the road, literally in front of the thousands of people every night, and what could happen. Scary.

Gillian Gaar: Yeah. Yeah.

Brad Page: Talk about the downsides of fame that you don’t think about when you’re coming up and you’re just, you’re dying to be a rock star, and then you get there and you realize there’s a whole dark underside of it. And Tom certainly lived through some of that.

A year later– the Traveling Wilburys, which is the supergroup of all supergroups, right?

Gillian Gaar: Yeah. Oh, I think so.

Brad Page: And it all starts because George Harrison basically needs a B-side, which is the most throwaway beginning to one of the most incredible supergroups of all time! And George Harrison writes this song, “Handle With Care”, that is tailor-made for, it ust shows what a great songwriter George Harrison was. Because there’s a moment in that song for each of those vocalists to kind of do what they do best. Of course, the record company heard it and said, “oh, this is way too good for a B-side!”

And Tom follows that up with the “Full Moon Fever” album in 1989, his first solo album, produced by Jeff Lynne, so that relationship continues out of the Traveling Wilburys. It’s a hugely successful record. Big hits off this record. And of course, Mike Campbell is there through the whole thing. Still his right hand man. Indispensable, I think.

Gillian Gaar: Oh, yeah, yeah, definitely. That was such a partnership. I think about how Mike just must still miss him so much.

Brad Page: I know. What a team. Just great songwriters. And Mike Campbell is one of my all-time favorite guitar players, because he always plays the right thing– the exact right thing that’s necessary, even if it’s only one note. He never overplays. He always finds something interesting to play. Just a great, great player and a great songwriter. And yeah, one of my favorite musicians, Mike Campbell.

Gillian Gaar: But that’s the one that the record company didn’t like initially, isn’t it?

Brad Page: Which surprised me because it was such a huge record!

Brad Page: “We don’t hear any hits.”

Gillian Gaar: Right. And literally half the record was hits! You know sometimes record companies, they don’t know anything more than we do. Nobody really knows what makes a hit.

Gillian Gaar: Yeah. If they did know, then every record put out there would be a hit, right?

Brad Page: Yeah. Jeff Lynne also produces the next Heartbreakers record, which is “Into the Great Wide Open” in 1991.

Brad Page: And now, when did Stan lynch, the drummer, leave the band?

Gillian Gaar: It was when they were recording the tracks for the “Greatest Hits” album. That was the last session he did with them. He just, he always comes across as a kind of prickly character. He was the one who seemed the most resentful about, you know, this whole sideman thing and that Tom would go off and work on his solo things and “Who’s this Dave Stewart guy”, etc. And yeah, he was unhappy during the recording of the new songs for “Greatest Hits” and that was just kind of it for him. He didn’t, he seemed to feel that he wasn’t being appreciated enough, so he just left.

Brad Page: Interestingly, Stan was replaced by a drummer named Steve Ferrone, who was a journeyman player, but I grew to love him from his work in the Average White Band, which is a band that I am really fond of. I love the Average White Band and he’s a really funky drummer, very different kind of drummer than Stan, but seemed to fit right in with the Heartbreakers and was a mainstay of the band, right up until the end. Steve Ferrone.

And Tom, in 1994, releases his second solo album, “Wildflowers”, which has gone on to be a big fan favorite. A real classic record. They released that deluxe box set version of it.

Gillian Gaar: The band members that worked on that album consider it a highlight of Tom’s career, he did himself. And, it was natural it would get this sort of deluxe box treatment. I don’t know if any other album in his catalog has received that, you know, because they put out a lot of extra stuff, here have been other box sets…

Brad Page: Yeah, it was like a 5 LP set, I believe.

Gillian Gaar: Yeah, just on the one album.

Brad Page: It does have a more intimate feel than you get from a typical Heartbreakers record.

Brad Page: 1996. This is another kind of oddball record in their catalog, a soundtrack album called “She’s The One”, which the movie didn’t really do anything, and I think the record really didn’t do too much.

Gillian Gaar: Yeah, Tom seemed to have pretty mixed feelings about it, ultimately. One thing that definitely harmed the record’s chances was that it’s all completed, but then they decide to delay the release of the movie, but for some reason they don’t delay the release of the soundtrack. So they put the soundtrack out months before the movie, which makes no sense to me. Yeah, you know, they put it in the soundtrack section, which was not where a Tom Petty fan is necessarily going to look for the latest Tom Petty album.

Brad Page: Yeah, exactly.

Gillian Gaar: And he himself seemed to feel conflicted about even working on the project. Like, he agreed and then I think he regretted it. First it said it was going to have other musicians doing their own tracks, but then he would have to reach out to them, and he didn’t like doing that. So then he would write everything, and that just became a hassle, too. So, not one of his most best-realized projects, though they did revamp it somewhat. I think it was recorded around “Wildflowers”, but he didn’t really want to mix it up too much. So some of those songs ended up on the “Wildflowers” reissue. And they reworked the soundtrack completely and I think even gave it a new title.

Brad Page: Uh, and this is also, it gets into a pretty uncomfortable time for him that he really didn’t like talking about very much… but he had a serious drug addiction at that time.

Gillian Gaar: Yeah. Not just drugs, but heroin. And I don’t think I knew this until researching and reading about him for this. Well, of course, he kept it under wraps, and he wasn’t collapsing in public or anything like that. But, you know, even his friends were surprised.

Brad Page: Right.

Gillian Gaar: To hear that. “Heroin? You’re using heroin?” I mean, if he’d, say, become a drunk or something…

Brad Page: Like heroin, that can kill you pretty quickly. Luckily, he pulled himself together, but you get the feeling it was a really, really rough time for him. Of course, he was going through a divorce at that time, too, right.

Gillian Gaar: Yeah. Yeah, and not an entirely amicable divorce.  So you have that weighing on you as well. I remember this friend of mine in an obituary she was writing for Lane Staley, she said, “No one starts using heroin thinking they’re going to be an addict.”

Brad Page: Right.

Gillian Gaar: And, you know, they generally end up that way. “Oh, I can handle this”. Well, then six months later, “Oh, gee, I guess I was wrong about that.” And I could see also for someone in his case, or his situation rather, that it would be easy to fall into because he’s not going to have the problems of someone that doesn’t have the money. He does. You know, he doesn’t have to go out and break into people’s homes to steal their stereos and computers to get money for his habit, right? He could take care of that easily. And so I think that, you know, that’s another barrier removed.

Brad Page: Yeah. It becomes too easy.

Gillian Gaar: Yeah. And, well, if you know, the music industry, it’s kind of full of leeches, too. There’s more than enough people that are happy to provide you with whatever you might think you want.

Brad Page: Sure.

Gillian Gaar: Yeah. I was surprised to learn about that. But, you know, good on him for getting out of it. Not everyone does.

Brad Page: And I’m sure it was… again, he didn’t really like talking about it, because I don’t think he wanted to glamorize it. He was, I think, ashamed.

Gillian Gaar: Yeah, you definitely get that sense. A lot of shame. But I think his story with it is a cautionary tale.

Brad Page: Yes.

Gillian Gaar: I don’t see how anyone could read what he went through and think that sounded at all glamorous, because it doesn’t. You know, he was just isolated in this new home, in a kind of rural setting, and not doing anything except taking drugs and nodding off. Oh, yeah, that sounds like fun, doesn’t it? So, yeah, I definitely think it’s more of a cautionary tale and not glamorous at all.

Brad Page: I do respect the fact that he wasn’t trying to cash in on it in any way. I think it would have been probably beneficial for some people for him to maybe have talked a little bit more openly about it, but at the same time, he didn’t make a spectacle of himself about it and hang his dirty laundry out for everyone to see. But, you know, these are such personal things you can’t fault anyone for however they feel like they have to deal with it. The reality is, thank God, he did deal with it, and by 1999, he was pretty much cleaned up.

The Heartbreakers release a new album called “Echo” in 1999. Produced by Rick Rubin, right?

Gillian Gaar: Yeah. Yeah.

Brad Page: That seems to have been a very difficult record to make. I think they had, again, working with an outside producer, there’s pluses and minuses to that. I think towards the end, Tom wasn’t super happy with Rick Rubin. I guess he left at the end to go work on a Red Hot Chili Peppers record, and kind of left Tom drifting in the wind there to finish up the record. But I think this probably started when he was, either still had his drug issues or he was working hard to get out of it, but that all was part of it, right? And made for kind of a difficult recording of that record.

And it’s the last record they make with bass player Howie Epstein, because Howie also had a serious drug problem, and they ended up having to let him go.

Gillian Gaar: And then he died not long after that.

Brad Page: Right, right. So, I mean, on one hand you have Tom, who’s able to make it through, and his fellow bandmate, who’s not so lucky.

Gillian Gaar: Yeah.

Brad Page: And it could have gone either way, really.

Gillian Gaar: Yeah. That must have been quite a sobering moment for him. You know, “there but for the grace of God go I” type of thing.

Brad Page: Yeah. We do have some great songs on that “Echo” record, though. I’m a big fan of the song “Swingin’”.

Gillian Gaar: Yeah. Yeah.

Brad Page: Ron Blair, the original bass player, he comes back. You know, it’s getting the old gang back together again. He could have probably had any bass player he wanted, but he brings in Ron Blair.

Gillian Gaar: Well, you mentioned earlier about how Tom liked working with these musicians regularly, even on solo projects, because it was a comfort level type of thing. And I think that’s one reason that Ron was able to be integrated back into the band so readily. Because, yeah, they had to get a new bass player and you could see that’s always a bit of a hassle. And so when they knew he was interested, I mean, it must have seemed perfect because here’s a guy who worked with them and up to a certain point, you know, was familiar with everything the Heartbreakers had done. Hadn’t played on the recent stuff, but he was a guy who I think they saw, he can get back in the groove pretty quickly.

Brad Page: Talk about “The Last DJ” album, which comes out in 2002. That’s the record that Ron Blair returns for. And that’s kind of a concept album, which is another interesting turn for Tom. But he was just so frustrated with the state of commercial radio that he just comes up with this whole concept record, basically lambasting the radio biz.

Gillian Gaar: Yeah, it’s like this attack on consumerism that I enjoy quite a lot.

Brad Page: Yeah, I like that record a lot. And of course, you know, there were radio stations that refused to play it, and real petty stuff– no pun intended– real petty behavior. But I think it’s a strong record and, I mean, he makes his case pretty well.

Brad Page: 2006, Tom records his third and final solo album, a record called “Highway Companion”. And to me, this is the really forgotten or overlooked record in his career. It wasn’t as popular as the other records. It’s probably one of the least selling– I’m guessing, but I think it’s probably one of the lowest-selling records of the career.

Gillian Gaar: Yeah, you know, I’m looking, certainly among the solo albums; the other two solo albums went platinum, but “Highway Companion” just went gold, so yeah, that means lower sales.

Brad Page: Yeah, I’m not sure why that is. I think it’s a perfectly fine record. There’s quite a bit of stuff on that that I like. Maybe the solo thing just kind of ran its course, I don’t know. But it always seems to be the record that people forget about.

Brad Page: 2007. A real left turn: He reassembles Mudcrutch. And they put out an album. And he plays bass, because that was his original role in the band; he was the bass player, not the guitar player. And you just get the feeling that he just, on a whim, just said, you know what, I want to get the old guys, the really old guys, back together and just have some fun.

Gillian Gaar: Yeah, that really came out of left field.

Brad Page: Yeah.

Gillian Gaar: If you were trying to predict what Tom Petty was going to do next in his career, bringing back Mudcrutch to not only play some shows, but release an album…

Brad Page: They ended up releasing two albums, actually. Yeah.

Gillian Gaar: Two! Well, again, that’s just his love of music there. It is kind of like a Wilburys type of thing.

Brad Page: That’s a level of fame– where you can go back to your high school band, get them back together and actually get records put out. Not everyone can do that.

Gillian Gaar: Yes.

Brad Page: Also in 2007, we finally get an officially released documentary, the Running Down a Dream documentary, which is like three hours long.

Brad Page: Yeah.

Brad Page: Well worth watching. One of my favorite rock docs.

Gillian Gaar: And you know, Peter Bogdanovich, too, a noted film director, not known for putting out musical films. Kind of unusual choice.

Brad Page: I got the feeling from reading your book that he didn’t even really know much about Tom Petty.

Gillian Gaar: No, that’s also another interesting aspect about that. I mean, he came from a very different world, the film world. Best known for his work in the 70s, I think, with the  Last Picture Show, and Paper Moon and what’s Up Doc. Yeah, so, that just shows it’s an interesting choice. I think at first he was even a little surprised, like, “Why do you want me?” But then he got to know Tom and liked him quite a bit.

Brad Page: Yeah, yeah. He comes out of it being a Tom Petty fan, but he didn’t go into it that way. But I think that lends a certain, um, maybe an objectivity to that documentary? And a curiosity, kind of a mix of both of those things, right? That he’s not smitten, like a fan film.

Gillian Gaar: Yeah.

Brad Page: But he’s also, there’s a curiosity about it that if you knew everything there was to know about Tom Petty, a die-hard fan, you might not ask some of those questions.

In 2010, The Heartbreakers released the “Mojo” album, which is one of my favorite records of their later period. Post 1990’s records, that’s my favorite. There’s some really hard rocking tracks on that record; there’s one track where I think they give Led Zeppelin a run for their money.

Gillian Gaar: That’s one thing about the whole breadth of his music. Just the sort of range in styles. I mean, they were always a rock band, but they really did seem to have the most fun when they were rocking out like that.

Brad Page: Yeah.

Gillian Gaar: And they probably didn’t do it often enough.

Brad Page: And that was followed in 2014 by “Hypnotic Eye”, which would turn out to be the last Tom Petty and The Heartbreakers album.

Gillian Gaar: And that was his first number one album, which is, you know, kind of surprising.

Brad Page: Yeah.

Gillian Gaar I guess his only number one album certainly during his lifetime.

Brad Page: Which is an odd fact for someone that successful, right? You would have thought they would have had number one albums. He’s had, of course, big hits, but the albums always fell a little short of hitting number one, until “Hypnotic Eye” all the way in 2014.

Gillian Gaar: Like “Mojo” and “Damn The Torpedoes”, they both reached number two, but yeah, not quite the peak.

Brad Page: Yep. I remember “Hypnotic Eye” getting a lot of really great reviews. So right up until the end, critics loved him; obviously, fans loved him, because it hit number one. But if you gotta go, going out on a high point like that, it says something.

Gillian Gaar: Yeah, yeah.

Brad Page: They performed their last show on September 25, 2017.  During that tour, Tom had had an injury.

Brad Page: At least the account I had read was that he fell and he had a hairline fracture and he thought he could just deal with it later. But over time, you know, it became more of a full-on break.

Brad Page: Yeah, because he’s on stage, he’s on the road and you know, he’s a trooper. He doesn’t want to cancel the shows, he wants to go out and play and do his thing, do what he does best. And so he stupidly, really– but we’re all prone to these kind of things– he decides just to grin and bear it. And he’s going on stage every night, which is a physical thing, you know, you’re on stage, you’re stomping around, you can’t help but rock out, right?

Gillian Gaar: Yeah.

Brad Page: He’s putting more and more pressure on that hip. He’s not a young man anymore. And it keeps getting worse and worse. And so he starts self-medicating, always a dangerous thing to do when you’re, you have a history of addiction, because again, like you were saying, no one goes into taking heroin thinking that they want to be an addict. I’m sure he’s going into this thinking, “I’m just trying to take care of this pain. I can handle it. Hell, I kicked heroin, I can do it.”

Gillian Gaar: Yeah, yeah.

Brad Page: And ends up just a couple of weeks after the Tour’s over, on October 2, 2017, he just takes the wrong mix of medications… and he’s gone.

Gillian Gaar: When they released the toxicology report, he was taking prescription fentanyl, but he was also taking non-prescription fentanyl. And you were saying self-medication is a dangerous thing, and I mean, it’s kind of doubly dangerous if you’re taking prescribed drugs too.

Brad Page: Right?

Gillian Gaar: You’re taking prescribed drugs, you’re adding things on top of that. And if your doctor doesn’t know that you’re doing that, that can set up a lot of dangerous interactions. So I mean, clearly he was doing that to deal with the pain. When you’re taking all these different kind of substances, then, yeah, it’s like a roll of the dice every time you do that. It’s a gamble, it’s a roll of the dice. And he unfortunately lost that day.

Brad Page: Yeah.

Gillian Gaar: I gotta say, I gotta say the one thing that’s kind of doubly frustrating is that the issue was not that serious. And of course, in retrospect, we say, “Well, he should have canceled the tour. The fans would certainly have come to see him after recovery.” But you know, he needed hip surgery. And, yes, there’s a risk with every surgery, but it’s very common and the risk is relatively low. So, it was just a relatively simple thing to take care of. So that’s, I must admit, as I’m writing that part, I’m thinking, why didn’t you just have the hip surgery?

Brad Page: I know you just think, “Oh, Tom, why were you so stupid?” But you get the feeling he was, obviously, he was a stubborn guy, for better or worse. It served him well in his career. Until it didn’t.

Gillian Gaar: Yeah. I mean, it was sad to read things from his bandmates on that last tour who would kind of help him get on stage and could see that he was in a lot of pain.

Brad Page: Yeah.

Gillian Gaar: Uh, and saying, “Are you going to be okay?” And he’d say, “Just get me on that stage.”

Brad Page: Yeah. And it’s the “show must go on” mentality that so many artists have. And it’s an admirable thing, but all things being said, I think we would all rather still have Tom Petty today.

Gillian Gaar: Yeah. Yeah.

Brad Page: But, yeah, And I remember hearing the news and what a shock it was.

Gillian Gaar: Well, yeah, that was another thing that just seemed to come out of nowhere.

Brad Page: Yeah.

Gillian Gaar: Because, you know, there was no serious illness. There wasn’t any obvious drug problem. And he just finished this successful tour that had gotten the usual strong reviews. And then I think it was just about a week, two weeks later, “Oh, he died”.

Brad Page: Yeah.

Gillian Gaar: “What? Something’s wrong with this picture.”

Brad Page: Yeah,  it’s one of the… you just don’t, you don’t believe it. It’s so hard to fathom. Such a shame. A huge loss for the music business.

It’s an incredible catalog of music. I’m a huge fan of so much of it. I really enjoyed the book, Gillian, you did a great job of putting this story, just telling this story. It’s just a fun read. And the photos are great, the layout of the book is great, the package is great. They did another great job with the slipcover and everything on this book. It’s beautiful.

Like I said at the beginning, if you’re a Tom Petty fan, or if someone in your life is a Tom Petty fan, and you’re looking for a Christmas gift, look no further. This book is great. It’s an excellent gift. It’s going right up on my shelf with my collection of books. I’m happy to have it.

Gillian, thanks so much for joining me again on another episode of the “I’m In Love With That Song” podcast. Always a pleasure to have you on.

Gillian Gaar: Well, it’s fun to be here.

Brad Page: Well, thanks again, Gillian. I appreciate it. Always a pleasure. Have a great holiday.

Gillian Gaar: You too. And everyone listening!

Brad Page: And that’s a wrap on this episode of the “I’m In Love With That Song” podcast. Thanks so much for joining us. Just a few notes before I sign off:

#1: Don’t forget to subscribe or follow the show so that you never miss an episode. And please share the show with your family and friends.

#2: Share your thoughts and your opinions on our Facebook page. Just look for the “I’m In Love With That Song” podcast, you’ll find us there. Or you can send an email to lovethatsongpodcast@gmail.com

#3: If you’d like to support the show, head on over to oldglory.com and buy a T-shirt or some merch from your favorite bands. They have tons of stuff in stock, including some Tom Petty stuff. And you can use our discount code lovethatsong to get 15% off. That’s oldglory.com with the discount code lovethatsong .

And finally, #4, pick up a copy of Gillian’s book. It’s called “Tom Petty: the Life and Music”, and it can be found on Amazon or fine bookstores anywhere. Go get it. You won’t regret it.

Thanks for listening. Hope to see you again on the next episode.

RESOURCES:

Gillian Garr
https://www.quarto.com/authors/Gillian-G.-Gaar/

Tom Petty
https://www.tompetty.com

Traveling Wilburys
https://www.travelingwilburys.com

Tom Petty & The Heartbreakers (album)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Petty_and_the_Heartbreakers_(album)

You’re Gonna Get It! (album)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/You%27re_Gonna_Get_It!

Damn the Torpedoes (album)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damn_the_Torpedoes_(album)

Hard Promises (album)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hard_Promises

Long After Dark (album)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_After_Dark

Southern Accents (album)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_Accents

Let Me Up (I’ve Had Enough) (album)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Let_Me_Up_(I%27ve_Had_Enough)

Into The Great Wide Open (album)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Into_the_Great_Wide_Open

Greatest Hits (album)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greatest_Hits_(Tom_Petty_album)

Wildflowers (album)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wildflowers_(Tom_Petty_album)

She’s The One (album)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Songs_and_Music_from_%22She%27s_the_One%22

Echo (album)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Echo_(Tom_Petty_and_the_Heartbreakers_album)

The Last DJ (album)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Last_DJ

Highway Companion (album)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highway_Companion

Mudcrutch
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mudcrutch

Mojo (album)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mojo_(Tom_Petty_and_the_Heartbreakers_album)

Hypnotic Eye (album)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypnotic_Eye

with Stevie Nicks: Stop Draggin’ My Heart Around
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stop_Draggin%27_My_Heart_Around